Certification or Degree?

[12345678nine]

I am currently employed at a very successful and large IT company. I know this is where I want to stay. I am currently being trained in MS Access for my current position. I think I would like to move up the ladder as a database analyst. I really enjoy the analytical thinking and knowledge of how to get information for reporting and such.
I want to move up, but I am really hating school. The idea of going for another 3 years is not appealling. There are so many other things I would rather DO.
I would like to focus on on getting an MCDBA certification I think. I am also going to go for a 2 year degree.
Since I already have my foot in the door at a great place, and I am doing well, in your opinion do you think getting certified and skipping the bachelors degree is the way to go?
I am killer at interviews and think I can explain myself well that my reasons for not getting a degree have nothing to do with laziness, and that I am very capable of working hard and (plan on) having great knowledge and experience.

Is a degree ALWAYS just the way to go? I feel like I would have regrets spending all my free time going to school. It might have been an idea before I had a full-time job, but now I have little interest.

What do ya'll think? Thanks so much for taking the time to read.

[osprey4]

Hi 12345678nine,

Welcome to TechIMO.

In general, a college degree is the way to go. You may be where you want to stay, but the reality is that you are unlikely to be there for long, and when you move the first thing a prospective employer wants to see on your resume is a degree.

[thephilosophizer]

And just to add to that, first, many employers will give you an automatic pay bump when you get a degree, some will even help you pay to get it.
Additionally, within most places, and especially if you like doing to analytical analysis, you're going to need a degree to get much farther up the ladder. And an advanced degree, say an MBA or an MS, would likely make you a well paid person indeed if you stay in the field you're in.

[de_day]

Well, here's something else to throw in the pot. I've just recently been on a LOT of interviews and I have a degree and 25 years of experience. The employers want to know why I never got my certs. So, I believe that you need both if you really want to get along in the IT field with as many opportunities as possible. I agree with Osprey4 in the fact that the days when you stayed at one company for a lifetime are over.

Ask your current employer if they offer tuition assistance and if they'll pay for certification tests. Then move on from there.

I know in the past when I was doing the hiring, given the choice of a person with a degree and one without with similar technical skills, the degree always wins.

[nemowolf]

There is a difference between just doing your job and wanting to learn as much as possible. The fact that you "Dont like school" tells me you dont have the umph to sit down and learn something that you dont like. You just want to learn whats interesting and useful to you. Thats just observational not judgmental at all.

Now personally, I live by the famous quote "Never let school get in the way of your education." by Mark Twain. If school isnt teaching you what you want to learn, thats one thing, but not wanting to go because you don't like the idea of going to school is just asinine. (Thats one of those 10 cent words you pick up in higher learning btw, look it up. Use it against your friends and watch them scratch their heads as they ponder what it means.)

You want to succeed in the industry then you need to remember that someone fresh out of college has all your training and probably worked as an intern during the year and summer to get experience. Take a page from Cypess Hill's Song:

but u still trying to get out and work like everyone
u know else it's a fun job but its still a job
theres gunna be another cat comming out looking like me and sounding like me next year i know this there will be a flip side to what u did
someone trying to spin off like some series

If you dont better yourself, someone else will and they will get the jobs you want. Strive for the stars and settle for the sky. Strive for the sky and settle for the trees. Ya dig!?

Get your butt in school and get your Degree; Many of them offer certification or certification ready programs. Rise up the ranks as you can but remember that sometimes its not the sinking ship that your bailing, just jumping to one offering a better ratio, champagne, and some snacks instead of stale beer. I hope your picking up what im putting down.

[12345678nine]

There is a difference between just doing your job and wanting to learn as much as possible. The fact that you "Dont like school" tells me you dont have the umph to sit down and learn something that you dont like. You just want to learn whats interesting and useful to you. Thats just observational not judgmental at all.
Now personally, I live by the famous quote "Never let school get in the way of your education." by Mark Twain. If school isnt teaching you what you want to learn, thats one thing, but not wanting to go because you don't like the idea of going to school is just asinine. (Thats one of those 10 cent words you pick up in higher learning btw, look it up. Use it against your friends and watch them scratch their heads as they ponder what it means.)
You want to succeed in the industry then you need to remember that someone fresh out of college has all your training and probably worked as an intern during the year and summer to get experience. Take a page from Cypess Hill's Song:
If you dont better yourself, someone else will and they will get the jobs you want. Strive for the stars and settle for the sky. Strive for the sky and settle for the trees. Ya dig!?
Get your butt in school and get your Degree; Many of them offer certification or certification ready programs. Rise up the ranks as you can but remember that sometimes its not the sinking ship that your bailing, just jumping to one offering a better ratio, champagne, and some snacks instead of stale beer. I hope your picking up what im putting down.

I'm not sure where you live that people don't know what "asinine" means. That is definitely the basics.
I don't see why it is a bad thing that I don't want to "sit down and learn what I don't like" unless I don't want to learn anything. I am just not digging the things school has to offer. I do like ASL which I would not be able to learn on my own, but things like cultural studies, literature, and history are things that I study on my own, and have found required classes on these subjects to be rather boring. I also do not want a career in any of those subjects, so higher learning which may be more stimulating is just not a wise choice.
I'm just not excited by school. I don't get that great sense of pride in getting an A in a class that is unstimulating. I feel as though it is stunting my educational growth to be attending classes, honestly. I don't have time to pursue other things, and those other things are not sitting in front of the TV munching on Cheetos.
I am all about bettering myself, so I am not sure why a college degree is necessary to do that? Are all the college graduates you know really wise and educated people who are "better" now than other people who started their careers 4 years earlier?
I also have a very heavy interest in learning all I can to advance. I have already started and have books on the subjects and am going to classes because it very much interests me. I like the idea of focusing on aqcuiring the skills I need to handle the job well and advance in my career.

[12345678nine]

Well, here's something else to throw in the pot. I've just recently been on a LOT of interviews and I have a degree and 25 years of experience. The employers want to know why I never got my certs. So, I believe that you need both if you really want to get along in the IT field with as many opportunities as possible. I agree with Osprey4 in the fact that the days when you stayed at one company for a lifetime are over.

Ask your current employer if they offer tuition assistance and if they'll pay for certification tests. Then move on from there.

I know in the past when I was doing the hiring, given the choice of a person with a degree and one without with similar technical skills, the degree always wins.

That's interesting because I am city/state I want to stay in and work for a company where people really stick around. Also, many of the managers in my dept don't have degrees. Why do people not stick around at the same jobs anymore?

[de_day]

It's not so much the people that don't stick around, it's the make up of the corporate world. You have downsizing and buyouts and sell outs and companies don't have loyalty to the employee anymore. I went to work at a company at 18 and moved up the ladder and retired after 21 years. I've worked at 3 different jobs since then and each time was released after a merger.

Remember, that you need to be marketable in the industry itself, not at
the place you work. One company has managers that don't have degrees,
but that isn't the standard.

[nemowolf]

I'm not sure where you live that people don't know what "asinine" means. That is definitely the basics.
I don't see why it is a bad thing that I don't want to "sit down and learn what I don't like" unless I don't want to learn anything. I am just not digging the things school has to offer. I do like ASL which I would not be able to learn on my own, but things like cultural studies, literature, and history are things that I study on my own, and have found required classes on these subjects to be rather boring. I also do not want a career in any of those subjects, so higher learning which may be more stimulating is just not a wise choice.
I'm just not excited by school. I don't get that great sense of pride in getting an A in a class that is unstimulating. I feel as though it is stunting my educational growth to be attending classes, honestly. I don't have time to pursue other things, and those other things are not sitting in front of the TV munching on Cheetos.
I am all about bettering myself, so I am not sure why a college degree is necessary to do that? Are all the college graduates you know really wise and educated people who are "better" now than other people who started their careers 4 years earlier?
I also have a very heavy interest in learning all I can to advance. I have already started and have books on the subjects and am going to classes because it very much interests me. I like the idea of focusing on aqcuiring the skills I need to handle the job well and advance in my career.

Let me AGAIN start by saying this an observation. Your sentence structure and lack of grammatical mastery tell me you have an average at best understanding of the flow of words. AGAIN let me inform you that the industry is not made up of one company with one rule set with one standard with one idea of what makes an employee or manager valuable. Let me AGAIN tell you that the statistics show on any career website that the higher your education the higher your expected pay is to be. Moving along.

That is great that you have a desire to learn things outside of a classroom, most people dont, but you need to PROVE you know things such as literature, language, history, math, etc to not just yourself but to the world. The standard for this is a higher education. (PS: Very pleased you know asinine as many of the people that are my clients would blink and stare at me.) It sounds like the reason you don't enjoy school is it is too easy and you get bored which in turn sounds like a cop out because if it is so easy, just do it as Nike says.

The last thing i have is that if you focus too much your like a knife, sharp as hell for cutting but try bending it and your bound to break. Culture yourself with some higher learning and you might find you enjoy art history more then you thought and persue that instead.

Cheers.

[de_day]

And I will add just as a side note, when you stay with a company, your pay advancement may suffer. Most companies give standard raises of around 3%. Being promoted to a different position will garner you 8-10% possibly. To advance quickly in pay (12-20%) a person would usually have to take a position at another company.

I was lucky in that the company I worked for for those 21 years had me, as the HR/Payroll System Admin, do annual salary surveys and adjusted ranges to keep good employees around. The first year a whole department received a 15% adjustment on top of our annual raise. This doesn't seem to happen anymore.

People who have degrees as nemowolf has said, can ask for and are paid more than those without. Routinely, I have seen employees who finish their degrees receive raises in the $5k range to keep them from leaving. Teachers in public school here are paid more to get their Masters degrees. It's just a measuring stick that you want to be on the right side of.

A job description may say BS degree required or experience can be substituted and you might get the job without it, but it's almost a sure thing, the guy with a degree would be made a bigger offer.

[nemowolf]

It's not so much the people that don't stick around, it's the make up of the corporate world. You have downsizing and buyouts and sell outs and companies don't have loyalty to the employee anymore. I went to work at a company at 18 and moved up the ladder and retired after 21 years. I've worked at 3 different jobs since then and each time was released after a merger.

Remember, that you need to be marketable in the industry itself, not at
the place you work. One company has managers that don't have degrees,
but that isn't the standard.

To add to this, it is often times a matter of perception for owners of a company to look at the value of an employee. When they look at accountants they ask themselves, does this person show they are doing their job? It is much easier to see and understand how someone in a forward facing job position adds value to the company. Now take someone like your average Help Desk or Admin position. When everything is done right and nothing goes wrong, how do you show someone who never sees you, knows your there, or is impacted by your work know that you bring any value to the table? Thus the IT industry is often times the first target of layoffs and downsizing in a company. It is easier to maintain a system then it is to build it, IE less staff is required to maintain the ship then it is to build it.

We also tend to be far more intelligent, better educated, require more training, and overall paid better then most of the rest of the folks in the company. To give you an idea, at my company I am probably in the top 20% of the company payroll and i do Help Desk ... So you figure that 80% of the people in my company make less then me and i am at an entry level position in IT.

[nemowolf]

And I will add just as a side note, when you stay with a company, your pay advancement may suffer. Most companies give standard raises of around 3%. Being promoted to a different position will garner you 8-10% possibly. To advance quickly in pay (12-20%) a person would usually have to take a position at another company.

I was lucky in that the company I worked for for those 21 years had me, as the HR/Payroll System Admin, do annual salary surveys and adjusted ranges to keep good employees around. The first year a whole department received a 15% adjustment on top of our annual raise. This doesn't seem to happen anymore.

People who have degrees as nemowolf has said, can ask for and are paid more than those without. Routinely, I have seen employees who finish their degrees receive raises in the $5k range to keep them from leaving. Teachers in public school here are paid more to get their Masters degrees. It's just a measuring stick that you want to be on the right side of.

A job description may say BS degree required or experience can be substituted and you might get the job without it, but it's almost a sure thing, the guy with a degree would be made a bigger offer.

De definitely knows his stuff! This is one well informed guy!

Saddly, with the way the economy is going and as i pointed out in my previous response, IT has been the target of many cuts. Regardless of being in the IT industry, the industry of the company you work for also has an effect on you. My particular companies industry was especially hard and we saw more and more companies not giving any raises at all. They pulled a report from a third party company that monitors our industry and found that of the major players most were giving nothing for the end of year raises. My company stressed that as we are financially sound, giving out a 2% raise, an average across the board, was better then most of the rest of the companies were getting.

Being the busy bee i am, I always check the job market to see what is out there. I have been offered some interesting positions but all of them with some level of higher pay. There is NO better way to increase your skillset and your pay level then joining another company and learning everything they have to offer for more money. I expect that should i take an offer i will be looking around a 20% increase in my base salary to compensate for the overtime i typically earn at my present job. I will not be sad to no longer be working 45-50 hour weeks.