View Poll Results: How long until an attack against the US is staged to rally support for Iran War

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  • By February's End

    0 0%
  • By March's End

    2 12.50%
  • By June's End

    2 12.50%
  • Never, They'll Invade Without Anything Other Than Skewed Nuke Claims

    1 6.25%
  • America will recover and stop this before it happens

    7 43.75%
  • Gulf of Tonkin wasn't a lie, so the thread is flawed

    3 18.75%
  • I'm a waste of oxygen, and thus don't care...just get my new HDTV here now!

    1 6.25%
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  1. #1
    oBeY SiliconJon's Avatar
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    Carrier Strike Fleet to Gulf...how long until an attack is staged?

    A second carrier strike group was deployed to the Gulf. [Yahoo] [Middle East Times]

    How long do you think it will be until another Golf of Tonkin incident occurs to sway the malleable and naive public into rallying behind another invasion (this time Iran)? [GWU.edu]

  2. #2
    Instigator Atomic Rooster's Avatar
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    I'll give them a week. Maybe week and a half plus a couple of hours.
    Unofficial TechIMO record holder for the number of times being added and removed from beemer's ignore list.

  3. #3
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    Bush is lying about Iran, just as it lied about Iraqs threat to Israel and Europe.
    The same source that was saying Saddam had nuclear/gas/biological weapons, and could have them ready to attack Israel or Europe in 45 mins. Is saying Iran is about to start producing nuclear weapons.
    Even the CIA, and the IAEA inspectors now working in Iran's nuclear facilities, say there is no evidence of Iran having the capability of it, and won't have for a decade or more.
    The gullible and those with a 5 min attention span, will have forgotten all about Bush and his nasties lying about WMDs in Iraq.
    So a large part of the US and even Europes population will believe the lies that are being spread about Iran, and to make Iran, the reason Iraq is in a civil war, when we all know, the incompetence of the Bush regime is solely responsible.
    Iran is a third world country with no defence capabilities, or hope of protecting it's innocent people from the nuclear bombs and the radioactive fallout.
    Iran has not threatened it's neighbors or attacked any other country.
    The US is the only terrorist state threatening to do that.
    Bush talks of rouge states, yet he is the dictator of the worst rouge state in the worlds history.
    He sends fleets of ships armed with hundreds of aircraft, missiles and nuclear warheads. To intimidate any countries his warped mind tells him to, yet is terrified by his own imagination about no existent terrorist.
    I could understand you worrying if it was Iran that had a massive nuclear armed fleets in the Gulf of Mexico, but it's your country that is the tyrant in this confrontation. With it's nuclear armed fleets in the Persian Gulf.
    The blood will be on your hands, just as much as the madman you elected president.
    There are no safe nuclear weapons, and all countries agreed to a no first strike policy.
    After this, the world will be a far more dangerous place.
    Give yourselves a pat on the back, for electing a psychopath as president.
    Last edited by Disley; January 28th, 2007 at 06:55 AM.

  4. #4
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    I feel sorry for the innocent people who could be on one of those US ships in the Persian Gulf, expecting to be protecting their families in the states from terrorism, when they will be used as a sacrifice, in an attack, organised by Bush and Cheney, to blame on Iran, giving Bush the power to order the bombing of Iran.
    Lets hope it's not even worse, and Cheney has a dirty bomb detonated in a US city, to blame on or link to Iran.
    We all know the neocons are capable of it, to further their grab for the energy resources of the middle east and central asia.

  5. #5
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    Writing for Global Research (January 24), General Leonid Ivashov, vice president of the Academy on Geopolitical Affairs and former Joint Chief of Staff of the Russian Armies, forecast an American nuclear attack on Iran by the end of April. General Ivashov presented the neoconservative reasoning that is the basis for the attack and concluded that the world’s protests cannot stop the US attack on Iran.

  6. #6
    Ultimate Member Pexster's Avatar
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    I think impeachment proceedings would begin the next day if Bush tries to pull that off. Maybe that's wishful thinking, but every sentient being on the planet knows he and Cheney are not to be taken at their words.

  7. #7
    oBeY SiliconJon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pexster View Post
    I think impeachment proceedings would begin the next day if Bush tries to pull that off. Maybe that's wishful thinking, but every sentient being on the planet knows he and Cheney are not to be taken at their words.
    Somewhere around 30% of Americans are not sentient, then. [Source1]

  8. #8
    Ultimate Member GiPilot12's Avatar
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    I want my TV!!


    It will happen, it is just a matter of time
    "I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend to be one of those deaf-mutes" Or Should I?
    Chapter 25, The Catcher in the Rye

  9. #9
    Living the dream The Real Bingo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiliconJon View Post
    How long do you think it will be until another Golf of Tonkin incident occurs to sway the malleable and naive public into rallying behind another invasion (this time Iran)?
    As a conspiracy nut, you disappoint me. I know your mentor, John Prophet would have thought of a better scenario. You know, like how we staged 9/11, we would stage another attack on our country to go to war. Why would we attack our own ships? - our country would be the wiser decision. I've heard rumors that Bush is thinking of setting off suitcase bombs all around Bethalto, Illinois.

  10. #10
    Instigator Atomic Rooster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GiPilot12 View Post
    I want my TV!!
    I already have mine.
    Unofficial TechIMO record holder for the number of times being added and removed from beemer's ignore list.

  11. #11
    oBeY SiliconJon's Avatar
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    Did you read the link regarding declassified intelligence documents showing the lies about the Gulf of Tonkin incident that were used to plunge us further into Vietnam, TRB, or are you a Fox lemming, leaping on motivation alone?

    People like you think conspiracies aren't real. Guess what, they're not only real [1] [2] [3] , they have specific laws forbidding many of them, occur regularly, and the bigger the conspiracy, the less likely you are to believe it and dismiss any evidence that so clearly shows it. Dismissing it simply because it has been mislabeled "theory" (or even if it really is just a theory) is a dangerous ploy all too encouraged upon by corruption. You really should study up your history, TRB, in particular so many declassified documents that paint such a clear picture of what those in power are willing to do to expand, or maybe just maintain, their power.

    I'm not hear to impress those too ignorant, lazy, or scared to read about what's going on and give it a rational thought process, so your concerns are about as relevant as a non-binding resolution. If you were to educate yourself and come up with an intelligent alternative opinion regarding the matter I would be more than happy to hear it.

    Quote Originally Posted by [url=http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB132/press20051201.htm]GWU.edu[/url]
    The National Security Agency has long resisted the declassification of material on the Gulf of Tonkin incident, despite efforts by Senate Foreign Relations Committee staffer Carl Marcy (who had prepared a staff study on the August 4 incident); former Deputy Director Louis Tordella, and John Prados to push for declassification of key documents. Today's release is largely due to the perseverance of FOIA requester Matthew M. Aid, who requested the Hanyok study in April 2004 and brought the issue to the attention of The New York Times when he learned that senior National Security Agency officials were trying to block release of the documents. New York Times reporter Scott Shane wrote that higher-level officials at the NSA were "fearful that [declassification] might prompt uncomfortable comparisons with the flawed intelligence used to justify the war in Iraq." The glaring light of publicity encouraged the Agency's leaders finally to approve declassification of the documents.
    Last edited by SiliconJon; January 28th, 2007 at 01:26 PM. Reason: grammar edit, added quote

  12. #12
    oBeY SiliconJon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GiPilot12 View Post
    I want my TV!!


    It will happen, it is just a matter of time
    I smashed your TV! It was full of lies, so I ordered you a newer model. :P

  13. #13
    Living the dream The Real Bingo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiliconJon View Post
    Did you read the link regarding declassified intelligence documents showing the lies about the Gulf of Tonkin incident that were used to plunge us further into Vietnam, TRB, or are you a Fox lemming, leaping on motivation alone?

    People like you think conspiracies aren't real. Guess what, they're not only real [1] [2] [3] , they have specific laws forbidding many of them, occur regularly, and the bigger the conspiracy, the less likely you are to believe it and dismiss any evidence that so clearly shows it. Dismissing it simply because it has been mislabeled "theory" (or even if it really is just a theory) is a dangerous ploy all too encouraged upon by corruption. You really should study up your history, TRB, in particular so many declassified documents that paint such a clear picture of what those in power are willing to do to expand, or maybe just maintain, their power.

    I'm not hear to impress those too ignorant, lazy, or scared to read about what's going on and give it a rational thought process, so your concerns are about as relevant as a non-binding resolution. If you were to educate yourself and come up with an intelligent alternative opinion regarding the matter I would be more than happy to hear it.
    I never said conspiracies aren't real. It's possible...just like God. Believe what you want, but chances are you'll never know, and if you do learn, you will be dead.

  14. #14
    Instigator Atomic Rooster's Avatar
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    I'll tell ya one thing silliconjon, there are many more lies floating around the internet trying to disguise themselves as fact.






    I'm invisible
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  15. #15
    Ultimate Member Chuckiechan's Avatar
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    Well, SJ... Do you want Iran to have nuclear weapons on top of battle ready weapons?

    Conspiracy on that for awhile...
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  16. #16
    Anime Otaku RobRich's Avatar
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    Time for a quick history lesson.

    For what its worth, the National Security Agency has released a Gulf of Tonkin Incident report. The text indicates the second attack likely did not happen.

    The first attack appears factual enough, but many people overlook a key aspect. The attack was likely in response to Operation 34A being conducted by the Central Intelligence Agency in conjunction with South Vietnamese commandos. By 1964, reports indicate fast patrol boats for Operation 34A would have been manned by South Vietnamese sailors/soldiers. In particular, Operation 34A launched covert operations in the Gulf of Tonkin area between July 31 and August 3.

    The first attack on US forces occurred when North Vietnamese patrol boats attempted to torpedo the USS Maddox while 28 miles off the North Vietnam coast on August 2. The Maddox was in the region conducting electronic intelligence surveillance. The Maddox evaded the torpedos and repelled the patrol boats. Aircraft launched from USS Ticonderoga attacked the North Vietnamese patrol boats. Records indicate one attacking boat sunk and one heavily damaged.

    It is easy to see why the first incident occurred. With Operation 34A operating in the area, the North Vietnamese navy was likely on high alert searching for suspect ships. Relations were already strained, and the North Vietnamese patrol boats stumbled upon an United States destroyer 28 miles off the coast. It does not take much common sense to fill in the rest of the details.

    The supposed second attack is the huge point of contention. The USS Maddox joined with the USS Turner Joy were on patrol while authorized to be in as close as 11 miles to the North Vietnamese coast. A radar contact appeared, and the ships thought it was another attack. Both ships then fired shells for two hours on the radar contact. Captain Herrick of the Maddox signals command of the attack. President Johnson is alerted, after which he meets with Secretary of Defense McNamara. McNamara asserts the United States fleet can not be attacked without repercussions.

    A few hours later, Captain Herrick signals again to blame the radar contact on weather conditions and an "over eager sonar men." He confirms there was no visual confirmation of an attack by North Vietnamese boats. He further suggests additional investigation be done before taking any action.

    Yet again, a little while later Captain Herrick sends another signal. In this message, he calls the situation "a confusing picture," but believes there was likely an attack. His analysis was based on intercepted communications that he had not even seen.

    Finally, about thirty minutes later Captain Herrick signals again to admit he is uncertain of what actually happened. President Johnson apparently ignores this message and proceeds with a televised address to announce military action against North Vietnam due to United States ships being attacked on the high seas. Operation Pierce Arrow commences, and the rest is history.

    The most telling first-hand account perhaps comes from James Stockdale, a navy squadron commander. He was flying over the area at the time of the second attack, and he recalls the destroyers firing at nonexistent phantom targets. He remembers the United States destroyers and plenty of open water, yet no attacking North Vietnamese boats.

    As for information gathered from the other side, retired Vietnamese General Vo Nguyen Giap confirms the first attack, but denies the second attack that lead to the decision to greenlight Operation Pierce Arrow. He indicates the first attack on the USS Maddox was in response to the ship being close to North Vietnam while attacks under Operation 34A were taking place.

    NSA historian Robert Hanyok researched the incident. Based upon available information, he believes the NSA attempted to coverup an intelligence error in intercepted communications, which resulted in distorted reports correlating information of a second attack.

    I can see where people could certainly cook up plenty of related conspiracy theories. However, if we dismiss conspiracy theories, it appears President Johnson made an executive decision based upon problematic reports from Captain Herrick along with flawed intelligence from the NSA. Either way, there is little doubt the Gulf of Tonkin Incident did not happen as explained by President Johnson in his televised address. The reasons for launching Operation Pierce Arrow were fundamentally flawed, meaning the resulting expansion of military activities in the region following the "second attack" was probably not in the United State's immediate best interests. Had Captain Herrick's final message been heeded or the distorted NSA reports been properly corrected, the Vietnam War would have likely developed in a significantly different manner.

  17. #17
    Instigator Atomic Rooster's Avatar
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    Nice read Rob.
    Unofficial TechIMO record holder for the number of times being added and removed from beemer's ignore list.

  18. #18
    oBeY SiliconJon's Avatar
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    Great run-down, Rob, but there's so much on the line with so many events like these that I find it harder to dismiss as mistakes when I see it repeated so heavily. Playing dumb is what I see. Granted when there is a conspiracy, all the players are not indeed keen to what is truly conspiring. A few pieces in just the right spot can too easily play out to all those around it as a legit affair.

    Quote Originally Posted by [url=http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB132/press20051201.htm]GWU[/url]
    Hanyok further argues that Agency officials had "mishandled" SIGINT concerning the events of August 4 and provided top level officials with "skewed" intelligence supporting claims of an August 4 attack. "The overwhelming body of reports, if used, would have told the story that no attack occurred." Key pieces of evidence are missing from the Agency's archives, such as the original decrypted Vietnamese text of a document that played an important role in the White House's case. Hanyok has not found a "smoking gun" to demonstrate a cover-up but believes that the evidence suggests "an active effort to make SIGINT fit the claim of what happened during the evening of 4 August in the Gulf of Tonkin." Senior officials at the Agency, the Pentagon, and the White House were none the wiser about the gaps in the intelligence. Hanyok's conclusions have sparked controversy among old Agency hands but his research confirms the insight of journalist I.F. Stone, who questioned the second attack only weeks after the events. Hanyok's article is part of a larger study on the National Security Agency and the Vietnam War, "Spartans in Darkness," which is the subject of a pending FOIA request by the National Security Archive.

  19. #19
    Anime Otaku RobRich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiliconJon View Post
    Great run-down, Rob, but there's so much on the line with so many events like these that I find it harder to dismiss as mistakes when I see it repeated so heavily. Playing dumb is what I see. Granted when there is a conspiracy, all the players are not indeed keen to what is truly conspiring. A few pieces in just the right spot can too easily play out to all those around it as a legit affair.
    Hanyok found the traces of a cover up, which probably did happen. The initial reports indicated an attack was imminent based upon supposed intercepted communications. When further analyzed, the communications failed to support the claim of an impending attack. According to Hanyok, NSA management distorted the official reports to cover up the previous error, which sadly would not be the first time government reports were altered to protect careers and reputations.

    Was there a conspiracy? Yes. There does appear to have been conspiracy by NSA management to alter intelligence reports, but what was the underlying reason? Hanyok dismisses overt political aspects as the motivator. The real question is did a conspiracy occur within the White House, and more to the point, why did Johnson and McNamara seemingly disregard Herrick's last message about the incident? If we look at Hanyok's conclusions, it would appear the executive decision proceeded based upon the flawed intelligence. As to the origins of the flawed intelligence, Hanyok provides a viable explanation with supporting evidence, though there will probably always be question marks from the political standpoint. I take few things involving politics and intelligence reports at face value, so even I have questions regarding the scope and conclusions of Hanyok's report.

    It is how one views the political aspects as to whether he/she believes there was a engineered conspiracy to launch a full-scale military attack on North Vietnam. Given the military power of the Soviet Union and even China at the time (despite the emerging Sino-Soviet split), one has to wonder if anyone in the White House was truly "insane enough" to knowingly engineer a conspiracy that could potentially lead to a world war. That assessment would largely depend upon one's opinion of the executive political leadership during the period.

  20. #20
    Ultimate Member Chuckiechan's Avatar
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    That assessment would largely depend upon one's opinion of the executive political leadership during the period.
    It also was Presiden't Johnson's feelings that you don't attack a US ship of war and get away with it. It doesn't matter what the reason was. They fired on it while we were experiencing "friction".

    What was he to do? Sit there and let China and the USSR see that we wern't willing to back up our military? If he had not reacted, world opinion would have been that we were "driven off" by the "peace loving democratic people republic of North Vietnam" - then as now, impressions count.
    Last edited by Chuckiechan; January 29th, 2007 at 01:52 AM.
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