The Godless Constitution

osprey4 · November 5th, 2007, 09:05 PM

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We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed...

There is no consitution without inalienable rights, which our founding fathers acknowledged were "endowed by their creator". Without a creator, from where do you suggest inalienable rights are derived?

MTAtech · November 5th, 2007, 09:24 PM

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We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed...

Psst, osprey. That's the Declaration of Independence. It has no basis in law.

The Constitution is clearly designed to be secular. There is no mention of God; it forbids religious tests to hold office; it guarantees that the government (Congress in the original text and the States as per the 14th Amendment) can neither deny nor establish religion.

The Real Bingo · November 5th, 2007, 10:35 PM

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Originally Posted by MTAtech

Psst, osprey. That's the Declaration of Independence. It has no basis in law.

The Constitution is clearly designed to be secular. There is no mention of God; it forbids religious tests to hold office; it guarantees that the government (Congress in the original text and the States as per the 14th Amendment) can neither deny nor establish religion.

Regardless of the legality of the Declaration, the Constitution is written with it in mind.

As Osprey said, the founders believed a creator gave us our rights, and it was the government's job to protect those rights.

And religion isn't such a bad thing. After all, look at all those successful, peaceful godless states. Oh wait...

MTAtech · November 5th, 2007, 10:52 PM

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Originally Posted by The Real Bingo

Regardless of the legality of the Declaration, the Constitution is written with it in mind.

No it wasn't. The DoI was written in 1776 and the Constitution ratified in 1789. There was an entire convention dedicated to formulating the Constitution. It was debated. None of that was done for the DoI.

Gomer · November 5th, 2007, 11:01 PM

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Originally Posted by Gomer

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Originally Posted by tony_j15

As to the founding fathers:

Of the 55 signers of the Constitution, 29 were Anglican, 16-18 were Calvinist, 2 were Methodist, 2 were Lutheran, 2 were Roman Catholic, 1 drifted between Quaker and Anglican, and only 1 was a professing Deist – Dr. Benjamin Franklin, who attended every kind of Christian worship, contributed to all denominations, and called for public prayer.

And straight from the horses mouths:

...

From the horse's mouth eh? But in none of the documents that are the very backbone of this country.

From another thread, which was never responded to anyway:
Beware of what is called "Christian"

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Originally Posted by Gomer

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Originally Posted by Atomic Rooster

Hmm... I guess you've never read The Declaration of Independence, The Bill of Rights, The Constitution of the United States, or even George Washinton's Easter Proclamation. Seems to be a whole lot of religion mixed with politics in there.

I am sorry... but that is a purely ignorant statement. And from it, I can tell you have never read those documents. Maybe church has warped your mind. Reread the documents you mention (save for the last, I've never read it)... and point out the "whole lot of religion mixed with politics" that is included in those documents.

That is one of the biggest loads of crap to me. That our founding fathers intended this to be a theocracy, Christian nation, religious this that etc.

They wrote those documents that you mentioned. The very documents on which this entire country is built. And as important as God was to them, he is only mentioned once in the Declaration of Independence:

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When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

They do mention the creator:

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We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

Creator... that's a cool idea. Where's the rest of the religion?

The Bill of Rights had this big chapter on religion:

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Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion

No other mention of God, Religion, Flying Spaghetti Monster or otherwise in that document. Did I miss it?

And The US Constitution??????

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The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

No religious test? That's a great idea!

The big three documents that are the very foundation of this nation.... and Jesus doesn't even get a cameo appearance. If religion was so important to the founding fathers and was meant to be a keystone of this nation... why were they so negligent in including it in the defining documents of this country?

Again, I'd love to see the "a whole lot of religion" in the Declaration of Independence, Bill of Rights, and Constitution. Who has brainwashed you Atomic Rooster?

Gomer · November 5th, 2007, 11:01 PM

See also the Treaty of Tripoli

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Unlike governments of the past, the American Fathers set up a government divorced from religion. The establishment of a secular government did not require a reflection to themselves about its origin; they knew this as an unspoken given. However, as the U.S. delved into international affairs, few foreign nations knew about the intentions of America. For this reason, an insight from at a little known but legal document written in the late 1700s explicitly reveals the secular nature of the United States to a foreign nation. Officially called the "Treaty of peace and friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli, of Barbary," most refer to it as simply the Treaty of Tripoli. In Article 11, it states:

"As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

The preliminary treaty began with a signing on 4 November, 1796 (the end of George Washington's last term as president). Joel Barlow, the American diplomat served as counsel to Algiers and held responsibility for the treaty negotiations. Barlow had once served under Washington as a chaplain in the revolutionary army. He became good friends with Paine, Jefferson, and read Enlightenment literature. Later he abandoned Christian orthodoxy for rationalism and became an advocate of secular government. Barlow, along with his associate, Captain Richard O'Brien, et al, translated and modified the Arabic version of the treaty into English. From this came the added Amendment 11. Barlow forwarded the treaty to U.S. legislators for approval in 1797. Timothy Pickering, the secretary of state, endorsed it and John Adams concurred (now during his presidency), sending the document on to the Senate. The Senate approved the treaty on June 7, 1797, and officially ratified by the Senate with John Adams signature on 10 June, 1797. All during this multi-review process, the wording of Article 11 never raised the slightest concern. The treaty even became public through its publication in The Philadelphia Gazette on 17 June 1797.

So here we have a clear admission by the United States that our government did not found itself upon Christianity. Unlike the Declaration of Independence, this treaty represented U.S. law as all treaties do according to the Constitution (see Article VI, Sect. 2).

Although the Christian exclusionary wording in the Treaty of Tripoli only lasted for eight years and no longer has legal status, it clearly represented the feelings of our Founding Fathers at the beginning of the U.S. government.

The Real Bingo · November 5th, 2007, 11:02 PM

Yes, but the Constitution was written to prevent the government from becoming like the English...which is why the colonies declared independence in the first place...because England was usurping the inalienable rights given to man by God.

What's this thing about "Christian" religion? They believed in God, religion aside.

Gomer · November 5th, 2007, 11:03 PM

If religion was so important to the founding fathers and was meant to be a keystone of this nation... why were they so negligent in including it in the defining documents of this country?

The Real Bingo · November 5th, 2007, 11:03 PM

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Originally Posted by Gomer

If religion was so important to the founding fathers and was meant to be a keystone of this nation... why were they so negligent in including it in the defining documents of this country?

Religion wasn't - God was.

Beemer · November 5th, 2007, 11:19 PM

God aside, they were describing the natural rights of man and offering an opinion of where those rights came from. Give me an objective, empirical reason to believe that in fact, a god is where those rights came from. Other than that, I think we all agree every man has certain inalienable rights most of which can be found in the Constitution of the United States, Canada and many other constitutions around the world.