The Godless Constitution

[wiggerbeater]

Good article by Ron Paul on the subject:

"The notion of a rigid separation between church and state has no basis in either the text of the Constitution or the writings of our Founding Fathers. On the contrary, our Founders’ political views were strongly informed by their religious beliefs. Certainly the drafters of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, both replete with references to God, would be aghast at the federal government’s hostility to religion. The establishment clause of the First Amendment was simply intended to forbid the creation of an official state church like the Church of England, not to drive religion out of public life. The Founding Fathers envisioned a robustly Christian yet religiously tolerant America." http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul148.html

And would secularists really want a biblical scene as our national seal? Which both Jefferson and Frankling suggested.

Franklin chose an allegorical scene that demonstrated the Motto, "Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God," where there is a depiction of the Exodus when the Jewish people are confronted by Pharaoh and achieve their liberation from slavery in Egypt. Jefferson suggested a depiction of the children of Israel in the wilderness, led by a cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night

[wiggerbeater]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beemer

God aside, they were describing the natural rights of man and offering an opinion of where those rights came from. Give me an objective, empirical reason to believe that in fact, a god is where those rights came from. Other than that, I think we all agree every man has certain inalienable rights most of which can be found in the Constitution of the United States, Canada and many other constitutions around the world.

Are you honestly trying to tell me Jefferson wasnt talking about God when he says "Creator"? It is even capitalized for christs sake.

Jefferson is also the same man who said "Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God."

[Gomer]

There was a Creator who gave us our Rights. Wonderful. I can live with that. We are each Independent because a Creator made us so! Excellent idea!


As for the Constitution. There is no mention of God, Christ, or Religion save for the statement that a religious test shall not be a requirement for obtaining office.

And as I have pointed out repeatedly this explicit statement, "As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion" was made by the government very shortly after is was created.

I am not sure why there is so much confusion on the matter.

[wiggerbeater]

“It can not be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians, not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ!”

Patrick Henry

“It is impossible to rightly govern a nation without God and the Bible.” George Washington quote

[Gomer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wiggerbeater

Certainly the drafters of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, both replete with references to God,

REPLETE?????? Both you and Mr. Paul need to reread those documents.

There is no mention of GOD anywhere in the Constitution. NOT A SINGLE ONE. As for the DOI, there was a brief mention of a Creator who gave us our rights.

REPLETE????

Quote:

re·plete /rɪˈplit/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ri-pleet] 1.abundantly supplied or provided; filled (usually fol. by with): a speech replete with sentimentality.

[wiggerbeater]

And that quote about the US not being founded on christianity was proclaimed only once, to a hostile muslim country that was suspicious of the US.

The full quote from the treaty:

As the Government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the law, religion or tranquility of Musselmen; and as the states never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mohometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinion shall ever produce an interruption of harmony existing between the two countries.

That phrase was mentioned once, in a treaty with Tripoli. And never proclaimed again. It was from article 11 of that treaty. 8 years later the treaty was renegotiated, and that line about christianity was completely dropped. So that statement you use as an end all argument for separation, is actually from one treaty that lasted 8 years with people who were still skeptical of christian intentions.

[Gomer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wiggerbeater

“It can not be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians, not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ!”

Patrick Henry

“It is impossible to rightly govern a nation without God and the Bible.” George Washington quote

Great, you've got a couple quotes.

This statement "As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion" and was a part of the treaty as approved by President John AdamsSecretary of State Timothy Pickering and ratified by the United States Senate by a unanimous vote. [wiki]Official records show that after President John Adams sent the treaty to the Senate for ratification in May 1797, the entire treaty was read aloud on the Senate floor, including the famous words in Article 11, and copies were printed for every Senator. A committee considered the treaty and recommended ratification, and the treaty was ratified by a unanimous vote of all 23 Senators. The treaty was reprinted in full in three newspapers, two in Philadelphia and one in New York City. There is no record of any public outcry or complaint in subsequent editions of the papers.[/wiki]

[wiggerbeater]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gomer

Great, you've got a couple quotes.

This statement "As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion" and was a part of the treaty as approved by President John AdamsSecretary of State Timothy Pickering and ratified by the United States Senate by a unanimous vote. [wiki]Official records show that after President John Adams sent the treaty to the Senate for ratification in May 1797, the entire treaty was read aloud on the Senate floor, including the famous words in Article 11, and copies were printed for every Senator. A committee considered the treaty and recommended ratification, and the treaty was ratified by a unanimous vote of all 23 Senators. The treaty was reprinted in full in three newspapers, two in Philadelphia and one in New York City. There is no record of any public outcry or complaint in subsequent editions of the papers.[/wiki]

This was one treaty with a banana republic, which was supersceded 8 years later by another that doesnt even include your claims. That treaty has been dead forever.

[Gomer]

Quote:

Although the Christian exclusionary wording in the Treaty of Tripoli only lasted for eight years and no longer has legal status, it clearly represented the feelings of our Founding Fathers at the beginning of the U.S. government.

[Gomer]

Take a break to read the Constitution Wigger and find me the REPLETE mentions of God.

Your claims have extremely limited credibility.