What if they dont find the girl who made the complaint?

[no1_vern]

The girl claimed she had a baby when she was 15, and was beaten, but to date, she hasnt been found. If they cant find the girl/woman or if they found out she lied about the polygamy cult wont any of the discoverd information be considered tainted? IOW, wont the case be thrown out no matter what is found out?

While Im thinking about it, why are ALL of the children being removed from all of the families?? It was one person who complained about being hit/beaten by her husband. How can they have reasonable cause to remove all the children from all the families?

While its been allowed, isnt making a law against a religion against the constitution? After all, the law might not stand up to a constitutional challenge based on freedom of religion.

It seems the PR machine is for the state is ramping up on this case hoping to win in the public court (misleading PR initiative by DFPS muddies YFZ Ranch debate) before the case actually gets tried.

First they issued statistics alleging 60% of teen girls at the ranch were pregnant or had kids, without adding that more than 80% of the girls so identified disputed the agency's assessment of their ages. (See "Lies and Statistics") I'm not sure I've ever seen a case where the state repeatedly labels supposed abuse victims "liars" in the press, but that appears to be DFPS' current media approach.

[Pexster]

The case won't be thrown out because the authorities were acting in good faith on the tip. And once they saw what they saw, the state law required them to act as they did.

Freedom of religion is not an absolute right to do as we choose.

Those women remind me of the parents in Invaders from Mars, or the people the pods took over in Invasion of the Body Snatchers. Scary!

[no1_vern]

What did they see? ONe of the things in the article I cited above was that 80 percent of the children/people did not agree with the ages they are claimed to be by the authorities.

Quiz me this, IF I say I am 18 but the authorities claim I am 15 and says so to the news which is right? Thats right neither, until the parents show the birth certificate.

The authorities keep saying "We believe" and "We think", and "Officials said"

Whats wrong with "We can prove__(whatever)"?? Perhaps they dont HAVE proof??

This seems like an agenda against a church, not authorities really concerned with the children's welfare.

James Harrington, Director of the Texas Civil Rights Project. "Is it really to find child abuse and prosecute it or is it also really to break up this religious sect?"

He notes that even though state officials say they had an undercover agent inside the compound, they based their request for a search warrant on an anonymous phone call, allegedly from a 16-year-old girl at the ranch who said she was forced into a marriage with an older man. Officials have not been able to produce the girl and admit the call may have been a hoax.

Harrington says authorities and the judge who issued the warrant were determined to disrupt the sect first and look for evidence to justify the raid later. "The warrant they got was a sham, but it has not stopped them from dispersing the kids around Texas and taking them away from their mothers and it raises a lot of questions, certainly, about legality," he said.

[outlaw2001it]

I've been following this since day one, and watched it when it was on Larry King, and I was astonished that this went on. I'm going to get into the mainstream first, before I go on to different parts of this whole fiasco.
1. As Pexster stated the state acted in good faith on the tip. The state has concluded that some of the women there gave birth underage, this is why the kids are in foster homes.
2. The sect stop issuing birth certificates...why? Most likely the kids were underage when giving birth.
3. The state at this point does not need anything else to take the kids away from their mothers. This is child/sexual abuse...that's grounds by itself (in the name of religion, or not) for the kids to be taken away from their parents.
4. The mothers don't know what the laws are because they have been secluded from the outside world. When asked if they knew that they were giving birth at an illegal age...all of the mothers responded we didn't know we were breaking any laws. I think that covers everything that I know, and what anybody was asking so far. If I missed something please let me know.
Now let's get into the laws, and other things.
This sect was on this ranch playing the polygamy game. The cops couldn't do anything thing because it's private property, and nothing was reported. Wait a minute...polygamy is against the law in all 50 states. They couldn't go on the ranch because it's private property, and they knew the law was being broken? Meanwhile other laws were probably broken...such as tax invasion. How many wives/dependents were these men putting on their W2 forms? I had 5 wives, and 26 kids, but I'm claiming 4 of the wives as dependents instead of spouse...so 1 wife, and 30 dependents. Taxpayer's money has been going to support this religious (if you want to call it that) sect, and still no laws were broken for law officials to raid them. Warren Jeffs the polygamist leader that was sentenced to 10 years to life is still in charge of these polygamy sects, and is still giving orders to his followers (whatever you want to call them...maybe pedophiles) from his jail cell. He has the best lawyers in the world (thanks to our taxpaying money), so he is willing to fight for this situation. Right now it's a lost hope for him, this sect, the kids, and the mothers...because laws were broken, and there is tangible evidence that child abuse was going on.
Meanwhile there are people in the U.S., and Canada still playing the polygamy game at the expense of taxpayers. The only thing the Federal Government at this point has to do is review tax records from the husband to find out who is being claimed as dependents, and then take action on it. Not saying to take away any kids if they are involved (Unless there is child abuse), but at least get them for tax evasion, and then proceed with a polygamy case...remember polygamy is against the law.

[osprey4]

Originally Posted by outlaw2001it

...remember polygamy is against the law.

Agreed. "Religious sincerity" does not overrule the court of law (a statement virtually all Mormons will agree with).

[Chuckiechan]

There is something bothering me about this whole thing - does anyone remember in the '70's - 80's when there was this big investigation and trial over some child care providers being accused of molesting the children.

Basically, the prosecution coerced the children to say what they wanted them to hear and innocent people went to jail.

Can anyone link me to this case?

At any rate, now I'm hearing that many boys were molested and many had broken bones. We're along way from "Boys being forced to pull plows!" but I think we are getting close.

I'm beginning to wonder if reports are getting out being plucked from the ozone and driven by a "crime story media" who needs a new story.

[Toadman]

Are you talking about the McMartin pre-school case CC?

[outlaw2001it]

There's been a few cases You had the day care center incident with both the guy, and his wife doing jail time. There were a few others...can you be specific?
The problem with the molestation of the boys, is all of them were thrown out of the sect upon turning 18. This way the older men didn't have to worry about competing with some kid, and an 18 year old on the streets...who's going to say anything, or even care. One boy did speak out. When everything started to unfold, this young man claimed that he didn't care what happened to him by Warren Jeffs, or anybody...he was sick of what the heck was going on there, and within other polygamy groups.
As for the media as I think everybody is being careful of what is being said...etc. The reason why that is I don't think the media wants to leak incorrect information,or anything like that that will get Warren Jeffs, or anybody like him off the hook. Warren Jeffs has the best lawyers in the world, and the will be happy to take on the media, and whatever else. I don't think anybody wants a lawsuit, but as I don't think anybody wants to give this S.O.B. any ammunition to claim anything.

[no1_vern]

The thing that bothers me about this is that any information may be thrown out.

Authorities are still looking for the 16-year-old girl who made the cry for help from the compound, and some experts say the legal basis for the Texas officials' raid may not hold up in court if they cannot locate the accuser.

"That 16-year-old is the linchpin for __probable cause__. She is the reason they said they had cause to go in and do this search. If that is not present, if they can't establish probable cause, then everything they gathered in the search will likely be suppressed," said legal analyst Jonathan Turley today on "Good Morning America Weekend."


He added, "They will not be able to bring criminal charges. They can even be sued for that.

ALL the information brought to light from tainted evidence MUST be suppressed. PERIOD. That is the way THE LAW WORKS.

So far, no REAL evidence has been brought to light. Just rumors, speculation(a bed with what looks like a womans hair on it?? PUH-LEASE!), and maybe intentional malfeasance on the part of the authorities.

[dchw_dude]

Originally Posted by osprey4

Agreed. "Religious sincerity" does not overrule the court of law (a statement virtually all Mormons will agree with).

I would like to make one distinction here - it seems that you understand osprey4 - that these poligamous sects are not connected with the mainstream LDS(Mormon) church.

Here is more info.
http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/...gamy-confusion

Back to the debate . . .

To me it seems pretty shaky here. Its almost as if they change their story each time they can't find the information. While I disagree with polygamy the way they are practicing it(yes I know my church practiced in the past, like 1890), I also feel that the state dealt with it wrong. If one girl calls, go In and look for the girl, and at most look at the family. Aside from rumor, they had no cause to raid the whole ranch.