David Barton getting slammed from both sides now

[mad1]

Originally Posted by Pexster

I suspect that many home-schooled children do not receive a very good education, simply because many home-schooled children are taken out of public and private schools for the wrong reasons, i.e., parents who want to brainwash their children, not educate them.

A fallacy given by the pro failing public education crowd. The parents want to avoid the brainwashing in the school system. The statement made by Borah in my last quote states it clearly.

As we approach the time of year when high school seniors begin making the final decision about which college or university to attend in the fall, the issue of home schoolers gaining entrance to college has reached the forefront of national media. On the front page of the February 11 edition of the Wall Street Journal, a report described home schooling success at the high school level and focused on several specific home school graduates currently in college or preparing to start classes.

Recent statistics from The College Board and the American College Testing Program (ACT) indicate that home schoolers are exceeding the national average test scores on both the SAT and the ACT college entrance exams. In 1999, the 2219 students who identified themselves as home schooled students on the SAT test, scored an average of 1083 (verbal 548, math 535), 67 points above the national average of 1016. A perfect SAT score is 1600. Also in 1999, 3616 home school students taking the ACT scored an average of 22.7, compared to the national average of 21, a perfect score being 36.

In 1996, ACT began keeping track of the number of home schooled students who took its achievement test and their test scores. Public schools generally have a specific code that identifies the school from which a student is graduating. Home school students taking the test are given a special code which identifies them as home schoolers. The ACT’s special code for home schoolers is 969-999. This is different than the code assigned for students with a GED (960-000), which generally carries the stigma of a “drop out.”

College-bound Home Schoolers Make Headlines (HSLDA | National Center News)

For the 1998-99 school year, 3,616 self-reporting home schooled students took the ACT with an average score of 22.7. The national average is 21.0. (A perfect score is 36.) It should be noted that the average number of students per state who took the ACT last year was 74. The state with the most home school participants was Michigan with 273 students who took the test. The states with the fewest home school test takers (excluding Delaware) were Rhode Island and Vermont, each with two participants.

Home-Schooled Kids Defy Stereotypes, Ace SAT Test

By DANIEL GOLDEN
Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL

ATLANTA -- Jason Scoggins will never graduate from high school, have a class rank or be recommended by his guidance counselor. But Oglethorpe University wants him anyway.
Jason Scoggins

Jason, who is 17 years old, was home-schooled by his mother. After he scored 1,570 out of a possible 1,600 on his SAT college-admissions test -- with a perfect 800 in math -- Oglethorpe invited him to compete with other top applicants for five scholarships valued at about $100,000 apiece. Of the 94 prospects in the Jan. 22 contest, eight were home-schoolers, each with SATs above 1,300

http://www.oakmeadow.com/resources/a...WSJArticle.htm

Homeschooled teen earns full scholarship to University of Chicago
CHARLESTON - A book by German philosopher Martin Heidegger sits open on the coffee table in front of the fireplace at Peter Borah's home.

It's weighty material for someone like Borah, who is high school age, but he says spending time poring over such works is a valuable opportunity for him.

"There's just no time to read a German philosopher in school," he said, explaining that having the chance to read Heidegger's book is one thing he likes about being schooled at home. "It's given me opportunities to explore things that I'm interested in and to work at my own pace."

Herald & Review Archives | Life: Homeschooled teen earns full scholarship to University of Chicago

[Beemer]

3,616 self-reporting home schooled students took the ACT with an average score of 22.7.

How many home schooled kids are there? 1.2 million? What about the rest of them? How did they do and how does that affect the average?

This thread isn't about home schooled kids unless they are being taught from the biblical perspective that corrupts history, science and English lit. The home schoolers in Mad's post above have not been defined in any way so the one's that stick out above the pack may be secular home schoolers or religious home schoolers that avoided using A Beka or Bob Jones University text. Any home schoolers or public schooler or private schoolers that have used these books have a shorter list of courses available to them at the higher education level. You can’t really screw with math now can you?

So. Lets have all the home schoolers test with ACT or SAT and see how the average goes.

We've dealt with this before and I made much the same comment back then Mad.

The cream of the crop are reporting. The others? Well.... who knows how they did.

I don't have a problem with home schooling if it's done right.

The topic of this thread is Barton and his ilk screwing with American history and this revisionist history being taught to kids.

excuzzzeme
Since you have a comprehension problem, you just sit in the corner with your fingers in your ears singing, lalalalalalalalala.

[Gomer]

This isn't the first time you threw those numbers around... and you never addressed my comments the last time.

Originally Posted by Gomer

Of the 2 million home school kids... only 3,000 of them took college entrance exams. That tells me a lot more than their average score does. And it's no wonder they had a better average.

Originally Posted by Gomer

Why is it that such a small portion of them are taking college entrance exams? Are they not going to college? Is your data wrong? Are they avoiding the exam because they know they are not capable of doing well? Maybe it is that Patriot U, Liberty U, and Patrick Henry College don't require it *shrug* (will have to dig around their web sites for admission criteria later).

I know there are many home school kids out that are quite sharp, don't get me wrong about that. But it is my (unsupported) opinion that this is the exception rather than the rule. I would guess they are socially maladjusted as well.

[Chuckiechan]

Actually, most home schooling ends by junior high school. By then the parents need to get the kids into more social and sports activities that you can't really do as a home schooler.

That's when the choice has to be made to send to private school or public school. That's when a voucher to return the education tax money is needed the most. Why should the school get it when your kid isn't in it?

That's the big fight in California and other places: the teacher's unions are against it. The ability of parents to choose alternative schools for junior is the biggest threat the teacher's unions see today. That's why they keep shoveling money and manpower into the Democrats.

[tony_j15]

Any home schoolers or public schooler or private schoolers that have used these books have a shorter list of courses available to them at the higher education level.

I used, among others, the A Beka series for multiple subjects, received a 26 on the ACT, and had my pick of the litter for colleges that would accept me. How was I impaired by a "shorter list of courses available"?

[mad1]

Beemer;2698665]

How many home schooled kids are there? 1.2 million? What about the rest of them? How did they do and how does that affect the average?

This thread isn't about home schooled kids unless they are being taught from the biblical perspective that corrupts history, science and English lit. The home schoolers in Mad's post above have not been defined in any way so the one's that stick out above the pack may be secular home schoolers or religious home schoolers that avoided using A Beka or Bob Jones University text. Any home schoolers or public schooler or private schoolers that have used these books have a shorter list of courses available to them at the higher education level. You can’t really screw with math now can you?

Have you actually looked at a curriculum for a home schooled child or a private school? If they are secular or religious that is irrelevant, what matters is the ACT ans SAT score. Those scores tell the quality of the education, based on scores it is obvious which is more beneficial. Why are some area pushing vouchers, the reason is due to the poor performance of the school system they are in. Sending a child to a private school or home school is using the personal voucher system.

So. Lets have all the home schoolers test with ACT or SAT and see how the average goes.

That is what the score is, did you read the article?

Have all the public school children take the test, this includes all the children that dropped out.

The cream of the crop are reporting. The others? Well.... who knows how they did.

The article discussed the difference in average scores.

I don't have a problem with home schooling if it's done right.

You mean if it is done according to your standards.

[Beemer]

I'm getting tired of you guys selectively reading my text.

You are familiar with the Calvary vs University of California, Berkeley. I've mentioned it several times in this thread and a few times in the past. The final proceedings on the matter just finished up on the 8th day of August, 2008.
http://documents.scribd.com/docs/hgh...xz9h9vy2i1.pdf

That court case is where I am coming from and you Mad1 aren't paying attention to the types of courses that would make you ineligible if taught by those books as primary texts. Depending on the course you want to take in higher Ed you may need to write the SATII test on the subject you are hoping to take in the university or college before you finish high school. Calvary has a problem with a few of their courses offered that are not excepted by UC because of lack of academic standard. Go read the pdf above and learn what it is I'm talking about. Pay attention to the rational reviews of the texts and the rational reviews of the courses in question.

Then maybe we'll be on the same page. Let me know when you are done reading.

[Darius]

i find it funny how poorly educated the majority public high school students are in my district alone. Yet, private school and home schooled students in this area score much higher on Compass college placement, SAT, and other tests. And yes, all three venues of education do have the "bad egg" students who refuse to mature and to do the work. To say that their education is limited is arrogant presumption if the placement tests say otherwise.
I also find it interesting that Beemer has placed himself as the expert on schooling in general and how it is to be done right, without factoring in other dynamics such as individual aptitude.

Beemer, tell me, what is the proper way for homeschooling or private schooling? I am interested, since my wife and I have been homeschooling our family for nearly 18 years.

Anyone can fail when not given the tools to succeed. But in the day of relative truth, I fail to see how the view regarding homeschooling and private schooling is so absolute from the side touting that truth is relative, and tolerance needs to be the mantra of the masses.

[Beemer]

Darious

Did you read the pdf file in my last post? If you did you would know where I'm coming from. I'm not against private schools or home schooling unless they are fundamentalist religious schools that preach over teach.

Would you teach your children guided by a course that is of blatant sectarian bias, distortions of history and science, numerous factual errors, poor sourcing that should obviously reveal a curriculum that is clearly inappropriate for a well rounded education?

I have not placed myself as an expert in schooling in general. This is the debate forum. If you can't handle it, go play in the softer forums.

We're about to get back on topic here. I'm getting tired of chasing the goal posts around the field.

[Darius]

Honestly Beemer, I have read those. I do believe in instilling my values on my children. I also believe in free will of choice, including for my children when they are of age. I thought I asked a legitimate question, as one of your previous statements did say that it had to be done the right way. Again, who's version? I personally do not use the history curriculum of David Barton, but I have seen the revisions done in the public school curriculum since I was in high school. What we come down to is you the moderator looking for the smoking gun in one area, then blaming the whole.
If you want to dance around the answer for your own agenda when asked the question that you opened up in your statement, I have to wonder just how much you wish to handle before you start with the barbs.
Again, my kids are testing fine. My secular or religious views are mine and my families. Do not push your view into my home and demand it be taken as complete fact. You have no children, and you have no one to worry about but yourself, not your children's education or future.
If you cannot agree to disagree, that is fine. I choose to. You are entitled to your opinion, as am I. I am only a concerned parent with no other agenda other than the best education for his children.