A glimpse of Obamacare...

**cyphen** · March 25th, 2009, 09:42 AM

From someone who's seen its effects.

Britain's National Healthcare Looks Like Medieval Medicine - HUMAN EVENTS

**The Real Bingo** · March 25th, 2009, 11:07 AM

What our wannabe European socialist leaders fail to realize about European socialism is it's an abject failure. Again, facts need not get in the way of a surefire way to put more power in the hand of the federal government.

**MTAtech** · March 25th, 2009, 11:32 AM

Or maybe this: The French Lesson In Health Care

In Sicko, Moore lumps France in with the socialized systems of Britain, Canada, and Cuba. In fact, the French system is similar enough to the U.S. model that reforms based on France's experience might work in America. The French can choose their doctors and see any specialist they want. Doctors in France, many of whom are self- employed, are free to prescribe any care they deem medically necessary. "The French approach suggests it is possible to solve the problem of financing universal coverage...[without] reorganizing the entire system," says Victor G. Rodwin, professor of health policy and management at New York University.

France also demonstrates that you can deliver stellar results with this mix of public and private financing. In a recent World Health Organization health-care ranking, France came in first, while the U.S. scored 37th, slightly better than Cuba and one notch above Slovenia.

Originally Posted by The Real Bingo

What our wannabe European socialist leaders fail to realize about European socialism is it's an abject failure.

Some failure. Number one.

Perhaps some people on this forum fail to realize is that they fail to realize.

**brandon184** · March 25th, 2009, 11:52 AM

I've never understood the whole "under universal healthcare, you can't pick your own doctor!!!" argument cooked up from the right.

In Canada, you can go to whatever doctor you want. But even if you couldn't... who cares? If I'm sick, I'm sick and I don't care who treats me as long as they're a doctor.

Get over this romantic place that your doctor holds in your heart. I can guarantee that the feeling isn't reciprocal. Do you think your doc gets some warm fuzzy feeling every time he lances one of your boils or ties off one of your hemorrhoids?

**The Real Bingo** · March 25th, 2009, 11:57 AM

France also demonstrates that you can deliver stellar results with this mix of public and private financing. In a recent World Health Organization health-care ranking, France came in first, while the U.S. scored 37th, slightly better than Cuba and one notch above Slovenia.

I'm guessing that rating is highly weighted towards out-of-pocket affordability. But I wouldn't know since I can't find how they actually determined the rankings.

**Gomer** · March 25th, 2009, 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by The Real Bingo

I'm guessing that rating is highly weighted towards out-of-pocket affordability. But I wouldn't know since I can't find how they actually determined the rankings.

The World Health Organization's ranking of the world's health systems
(see the "source" and "see-also" link)

WHO’s assessment system was based on five indicators: overall level of population health; health inequalities (or disparities) within the population; overall level of health system responsiveness (a combination of patient satisfaction and how well the system acts); distribution of responsiveness within the population (how well people of varying economic status find that they are served by the health system); and the distribution of the health system’s financial burden within the population (who pays the costs).

**The Real Bingo** · March 25th, 2009, 01:45 PM

Are those factors equally weighted? Does the USA suffer in only one area (financial burden), which brings its entire ranking down?

And the study is eight years old...something tells me places like France and UK are suffering the inevitable inefficiencies and mismanagement of government bureaucracy. I have no doubt that, in some nations, government running health care can work for a while...but, like with everything the government does, it'll eventually fail. In some nations it'll probably work indefinitely, given efficient governance and a small population...the USA has neither.

**Gomer** · March 25th, 2009, 02:09 PM

Originally Posted by The Real Bingo

Are those factors equally weighted? Does the USA suffer in only one area (financial burden), which brings its entire ranking down?

And the study is eight years old...something tells me places like France and UK are suffering the inevitable inefficiencies and mismanagement of government bureaucracy. I have no doubt that, in some nations, government running health care can work for a while...but, like with everything the government does, it'll eventually fail. In some nations it'll probably work indefinitely, given efficient governance and a small population...the USA has neither.

I found it for you, but I'm not going to read it for you.

Besides, why should I bother. You already seem to have all the answers, the preconceptions, and presumptions all in hand it seems. I don't want to go up that hill today. Read the summary of the report. Read it first, then point out the flaws.

8 yrs old doesn't seem too bad. I don't (and I'm pretty positive you don't either) have any idea how long France's system has existed in its current form and if it is/was subjected to deterioration over the past 10 years. I'll say this, and maybe you haven't felt it because you're enjoying your socialized health care provided by the taxpayers... My ratio of cost to quality has skyrocketed over the last 6 years. If I were to suggest (based on my experiences) that anything has changed since that report was published, it's that the US has dropped even lower in rank.

But to answer your question, by looking at the spreadsheet (in the see also portion at the link I gave you), it looks equally weighted.

**The Real Bingo** · March 25th, 2009, 02:39 PM

Thanks, Gomer...you're a doll.

**Gomer** · March 25th, 2009, 03:11 PM

Originally Posted by The Real Bingo

Thanks, Gomer...you're a doll.

It's my pleasure.

**GroundZero3** · March 25th, 2009, 04:15 PM

Take a very good look at Tricare/the VA and any state run prison when it comes to health care being run by the government and I say no thanks!!!

I am currently fighting the VA right now to get the help my mother needs. She retired from the Air Force and it seems trying to get someone who knows what the hell is going on/the treatment she needs

**Pexster** · March 25th, 2009, 04:18 PM

As I recall, Obama wants everyone to have access to the same health care benefits that members of Congress receive -- if they want it!

From Bingo . . . .

What our wannabe European socialist leaders fail to realize about European socialism is it's an abject failure. Again, facts need not get in the way of a surefire way to put more power in the hand of the federal government.

That's quite a sweeping statement. Have you asked any Danes how they like their society? Any Swedes? Any Finns?

**Black*Dragon** · March 25th, 2009, 05:45 PM

Originally Posted by GroundZero3

Take a very good look at Tricare/the VA and any state run prison when it comes to health care being run by the government and I say no thanks!!!

I am currently fighting the VA right now to get the help my mother needs. She retired from the Air Force and it seems trying to get someone who knows what the hell is going on/the treatment she needs

Get to your Congressional Representatives office. What you need is precise straight forward run down of what your Mother has been going through.

Then do the same for both Virginia Senators in a letter, but if they have an office close then see them in person.

Have copies of all related documents with an introduction letter outlining the problems. Leave that with them of course and have all your contact info on it.

Do not put it off or think this will not work because the most effective way to get a government agency moving is with a simple inquiry from your elected representatives. That first inquiry into these matters has always caused a reaction by the VA and the Social Security people in the cases I have helped others with.

You need that official first inquiry, and watch the results. It will pleasantly surprise you how fast someone from the VA will be contacting your Mother.

Naturally you may have to do follow ups with your Senators and Representative BUT this action will put the VA on notice that you are not going away and just enlisted heavy bomber support to help you.

It has always worked when I have helped others with this path and can be used for any federal agency.

Also and I cannot emphasize this more, keep your statements as simple and uncomplicated as possible. Leave out extraneous information because one thing I have learned with office workers as a whole, if you overload them with data the story you told them will change before they walk out the door. Precise, direct and like Friday on Dragnet "Just the facts Ma'am".

**engracio** · March 25th, 2009, 07:47 PM

Originally Posted by GroundZero3

Take a very good look at Tricare/the VA and any state run prison when it comes to health care being run by the government and I say no thanks!!!

I am currently fighting the VA right now to get the help my mother needs. She retired from the Air Force and it seems trying to get someone who knows what the hell is going on/the treatment she needs

GZ3

Granted I have not been in the Tricare system for a long time, only changed when my corporate insurance skyrocketed and is able to see local doctors intead of Mil pers. So far the quality I get is pretty decent considring they would have been the same doctors I would be seeing if I was with big blue.

The copay is real low, annual premium is very low (supposed to be FREE) and lucky enough to live 5 minutes away from a major hospital. Granted its a pain trying to get referrals for out of group doctors but that was the case also with my corporate plans.

B*D's suggestion sounds good and would have to remember that when red tape gets in the way. I remember how the chain of command jumps thru hoops whenever there was a Congressional investigation.

Matter of fact, just got my 50yo test and my mug shot does not look so bad. Harder should have done it already long time ago, right pops?

Like they say everybody got one and I was good at it.

**The Real Bingo** · March 25th, 2009, 09:00 PM

Originally Posted by Pexster

As I recall, Obama wants everyone to have access to the same health care benefits that members of Congress receive -- if they want it!

From Bingo . . . .That's quite a sweeping statement. Have you asked any Danes how they like their society? Any Swedes? Any Finns?

Like I said: it can be effective if the government is efficient and population small. You see problems in the UK because they're a large country with a big bureaucracy...the USA would be more of the same.

If we could implement a system where everyone gets quality, timely, no-compromise health care for a reasonable cost to taxpayers, I'd be all for it...but you can't tell me that's how it would be.

**Chuckiechan** · March 26th, 2009, 09:46 AM

I have a customer who's father is a German citizen in Germany. He was diagnosed with end stage renal failure when he was 64. The sent him home to die.

His son, made arrangements to have him flown to the USA to see his own doctor. His father was immediately put on dialysis, got a transplant a couple of years later, and is 83 or so and still kicking.

The accountants in Germany didn't feel spending the money on an 64 year old man was the "value" they were looking for so they left out the part where he could have been told "His life is worth more in America, I suggest you move".

**MTAtech** · March 26th, 2009, 09:55 AM

Yes, we can all point to anecdotal cases that make our point but don't represent the big picture. Of the 40 million Americans that don't have healthcare, any sit home and die because they can't afford care. Also, don't fool yourself into thinking that HMOs and insurance companies don't ration health dollars.

**Chuckiechan** · March 26th, 2009, 10:02 AM

Of the 40 million Americans that don't have healthcare, any sit home and die because they can't afford care.

Who are these 40 million people? You can't include Canadians.

And do you believe that adding these 40 million uninsured, that maybe the supply side of the system may be affected?

**MTAtech** · March 26th, 2009, 10:07 AM

You are being obtuse if you deny there are 40 million uninsured Americans. About the supply, are you suggesting that we shouldn't insure everyone because there won't be enough left over for rich foreigners who pay cash?

**Chuckiechan** · March 26th, 2009, 10:16 AM

I don't believe there are 40 million uninsured Americans - not unless you include the illegals, and no one knows how many there are.

Regarding "foreigners", why would you refuse temporary legal entry for treatment for someone who pays "cash", and thus doesn't impact taxpayers, yet have no problem allow foreigners here illegally to have treatment at taxpayers expense.

People with money to pay their way aren't "worthy" in Obama world?