Carrying a gun = 4.5x likely to get shot; 4.2x likely to get shot and die

[EXreaction]

For all those of you who want more people to carry weapons and thinks it prevents people from getting injured or committing crimes.

Overall, Branas's study found that people who carried guns were 4.5 times as likely to be shot and 4.2 times as likely to get killed compared with unarmed citizens. When the team looked at shootings in which victims had a chance to defend themselves, their odds of getting shot were even higher.

Carrying a gun increases risk of getting shot and killed - science-in-society - 06 October 2009 - New Scientist

[ShyguyXPC]

Keep in Mind this is but One City and Area and does not necessarily mean it is as high else where in the nation, or the nation as a whole.

Packing heat may backfire. People who carry guns are far likelier to get shot – and killed – than those who are unarmed, a study of shooting victims in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, has found.

It would be impractical – not to say unethical – to randomly assign volunteers to carry a gun or not and see what happens. So Charles Branas's team at the University of Pennsylvania analysed 677 shootings over two-and-a-half years to discover whether victims were carrying at the time, and compared them to other Philly residents of similar age, sex and ethnicity. The team also accounted for other potentially confounding differences, such as the socioeconomic status of their neighbourhood.

They would have to do a much more larger nationwide study before I would take the findings more seriously.

Even in the article they commented that this isn't necessarily enough to go on, as its just the beginning with this study.

"We don't have an answer as to whether guns are protective or perilous," Branas says. "This study is a beginning."

[Epidemic]

possibly it is true that you are more likely to get shot ... but much of that may have to do with stepping in to situations. brandishing, and growing balls that are too big for your britches.

Personally I don't know. If I carry I will attempt to make sure the other guy goes down in push comes to shove.

[The Real Bingo]

Bullshit.

How many were carrying legally?

[Gomer]

possibly it is true that you are more likely to get shot ... but much of that may have to do with stepping in to situations. brandishing, and growing balls that are too big for your britches.

Considering that more people shoot and kill each other in arguments each year than are shot over gangs, drugs, and robberies and combined... I'll buy that.

And another telling statistic in this link:
There were 2619 people killed with firearms because of arguments vs 698 murdered in robberies, 51 in burglaries, and 15 in car jackings.

Drug related disputes resulted in 798 people being killed.

Juvenile gang related firearm killings... 711.

The majority of firearm killings are to settle Non-drug and non-gang related disputes, not during the commission of a crime. Instant, concealable, death at ones fingertip to be met out with the twitch of a muscle. And you don't even need to get close to them to do it. Increasing the number of firearms will only cause that number to rise easily offsetting the decrease in the 598 killed in robberies.

[The Real Bingo]

How many of those 2619 were in response to an instigator (i.e. in self-defense)?

And at the risk of sounding repetitive: how many were legally carrying?

[Gomer]

How many of those 2619 were in response to an instigator (i.e. in self-defense)?

Considering that they were homicides... I dunno, ZERO?

[The Real Bingo]

Considering that they were homicides... I dunno, ZERO?

Maybe you don't know, but there are degrees of murder/homicide.

By the way, your wording simply says "killed"...doesn't say "murdered".


And at the risk of sounding repetitive sounding repetitive: how many were legally carrying?

[Gomer]

Maybe you don't know, but there are degrees of murder/homicide.

By the way, your wording simply says "killed"...doesn't say "murdered".


And at the risk of sounding repetitive sounding repetitive: how many were legally carrying?

I provided you the link. FWIW... a few clicks in you can find this:

Justifiable homicide - Certain willful killings must be reported as justifiable, or excusable. In the UCR Program, justifiable homicide is defined as and limited to:

• The killing of a felon by a peace officer in the line of duty.
• The killing of a felon, during the commission of a felony, by a private citizen.

Because these killing are determined through law enforcement investigation to be justifiable, they are tabulated separately from murder and nonnegligent manslaughter.

That table is for murder only. It does not include homicide via "self-defense."

Why did you ask anyway? Because it doesn't jibe with your perception of the gun violence problem in the US?


As for the third time you've asked your question in an hour... you're not new to how these forums work are you? It's not like "instant" messaging.

[The Real Bingo]

I provided you the link. FWIW... a few clicks in you can find this:
That table is for murder only. It does not include homicide via "self-defense."

Why did you ask anyway? Because it doesn't jibe with your perception of the gun violence problem in the US?

Gun violence is directly related to the position people put themselves in. Most arguments/confrontations/murders are avoidable.

As for the third time you've asked your question in an hour... you're not new to how these forums work are you? It's not like "instant" messaging.

So I guess that means you don't know. It's probably tough to find out. And it's probably a number you wouldn't like; a number that would tell you that people breaking the law by carrying illegally will probably have a better chance of killing someone while they're at it. But I'm just guessing.

[Gomer]

So I guess that means you don't know. It's probably tough to find out. And it's probably a number you wouldn't like; a number that would tell you that people breaking the law by carrying illegally will probably have a better chance of killing someone while they're at it. But I'm just guessing.

I know you're just guessing... that's your standard method of operation it seems.

It probably means I don't give a shit and haven't bothered looking. Why should I bother doing legwork that you could do yourself? You don't even bother clicking on a link in my post before asking stupid questions about it. I am not the OP on this topic. Why are acting like you expect me to have the answer?

Fact of the matter is (as I have shown you with the data) is that you're more likely to get shot in something akin to a road rage incident than you are a robbery. And when someone pulls up along side you and shoots you in the face, it's not going to matter if you're packing a piece in your cute little homemade holster. (illegal or otherwise).

When it comes to arguing... a handgun is not a defensive weapon.

Don't roll your eyes at me.

[The Real Bingo]

What I'm saying is that your disdain for gun ownership is misdirected. If you take the time and effort and money into buying a gun on the up-and-up and then getting a license/permit to carry it - if your state requires it - you're probably not going out looking for trouble. You're going to be responsible and will abide by the law.

You seem to want less access to guns and more laws when there are already enough...there is a system set up for the people who don't want to pay attention to the law.

About murder during an argument. It's kind of like the girl who goes to a club, gets drunk, snorts coke, takes X and then gets raped. Sure, it's not technically her fault, but she could've done a lot to prevent it from happening.


p.s. I normally carry concealed. Concealed means concealed. My carrying has no bearing on whether or not I'm a target of a shooting because no one knows I'm carrying. Of course, carrying openly - which I've done - makes me more of a target, possibly...could also make me a deterrent to crime. Depends if the punk feels lucky.

And, of course, if I have to draw on someone who also has a gun, my chances of getting shot go up astronomically.

[sharder8]

Gomer -- TRB has a point . . .

I've been licensed to carry in several states and one of the things all covered in depth was how to avoid getting in a position where you'd need to draw or use your weapon. In the 35 years that I've carried on and off, only once did I find myself in a position where I had to draw.

Harder

[Gomer]

What I'm saying is that your disdain for gun ownership is misdirected. If you take the time and effort and money into buying a gun on the up-and-up and then getting a license/permit to carry it - if your state requires it - you're probably not going out looking for trouble. You're going to be responsible and will abide by the law.

You seem to want less access to guns and more laws when there are already enough...there is a system set up for the people who don't want to pay attention to the law.

More guns = more people dying from firearm violence, not less. Given that more people shoot each other in arguments than drugs, gangs and robberies combined I don't see where more guns is going to make us safer.

For that reason... and given that we both agree that the amount of illegal firearms that are in circulation are also responsible for firearm violence and crime... I am all for any and all laws that will serve to reduce the amount of illegal firearms in circulation. Regardless of reasonable restriction on "right".

I find it extremely counterproductive that almost everyregulation of firearms is demonized as an attack of 2nd amendment rights. I also think it nonsense when the 2nd is held up as a means of somehow being able to defend yourself against the government. That's laughable.

Less regulation, more access is not the answer!

About murder during an argument. It's kind of like the girl who goes to a club, gets drunk, snorts coke, takes X and then gets raped. Sure, it's not technically her fault, but she could've done a lot to prevent it from happening.

The abortion wackjob that was shot on the corner and the guy that was shot at the gravel pit were killed by a guy with multiple legal weapons. He was also a mental case. It wouldn't have mattered if either of the people he killed were carrying, concealed or otherwise. They could have been walking around with AR-15s over their shoulders and they still would have gotten it.

In the closest I've ever been to a firearm murder... a guy (60 some years old married 30+ years ex cop?), 1/4 mile from where I was working shot his wife in the face in the parking lot of a bank across the street from the police station and just drove off. He had financial troubles he had been hiding from her.

p.s. I normally carry concealed. Concealed means concealed. My carrying has no bearing on whether or not I'm a target of a shooting because no one knows I'm carrying. Of course, carrying openly - which I've done - makes me more of a target, possibly...could also make me a deterrent to crime. Depends if the punk feels lucky.

And, of course, if I have to draw on someone who also has a gun, my chances of getting shot go up astronomically.

As above, it isn't a matter of people knowing whether you're carrying or not making you a target of a shooting. It's a matter of you being less likely to defend yourself.

You want that gun to defend yourself against the 700 people who might kill and rob you when there are 2600 who want to shoot you in the back of the head because you pissed them off. The numbers aren't in your favor.

Laws that would reduce illegal weapons will knock down that 700 robbery murders number. Laws that would limit access would knock down the 2600 pissed off people murdering you.

Reducing firearm restrictions would increase both... certainly the former.

[Gomer]

Gomer -- TRB has a point . . .

I've been licensed to carry in several states and one of the things all covered in depth was how to avoid getting in a position where you'd need to draw or use your weapon. In the 35 years that I've carried on and off, only once did I find myself in a position where I had to draw.

Harder

No doubt. I know that is a tenet of carrying. But the point is that if someone is going to shoot you because they are mad at you, it's going to come down to who has their gun out first... that's if they even give you a chance of letting you see them coming.

[pickel]

Bullshit.

How many were carrying legally?

DITTO

[pickel]

If I'm carrying a gun, I get attacked, I pull my gun, and then the suspect(gets shot ) flees.

[Chuckiechan]

While it may be that the type of people who carry firearms are simply more likely to get shot

In other words, this appears to include gang bangers and other criminals getting in shoot out's with each other.

I think most concealed carry citizens don't try to play cop and challenge an armed criminal. The idea is to shoot before the person sees the weapon. Draw - Bang. Surprise! Were done here. (Except for the paper work).

No point threatening and having to think about it and possibly freeze up at the critical time, possibly being overpowered by indecision and have it taken from you and used on you.

[Gomer]

In other words, this appears to include gang bangers and other criminals getting in shoot out's with each other.

They looked at 250 killings per year in one city. That's almost half of all the gang related killings that happened in 2005 nationwide. It includes gang-bangers sure... but it doesn't look like they are the majority (per the averages)

I think most concealed carry citizens don't try to play cop and challenge an armed criminal. The idea is to shoot before the person sees the weapon. Draw - Bang. Surprise! Were done here. (Except for the paper work).

No point threatening and having to think about it and possibly freeze up at the critical time, possibly being overpowered by indecision and have it taken from you and used on you.

2,600 people were murdered (for bingo) with firearms in non-gang related arguments in 2005. That same year there were only 143 justifiable firearm killings.

[The Real Bingo]

More guns = more people dying from firearm violence, not less. Given that more people shoot each other in arguments than drugs, gangs and robberies combined I don't see where more guns is going to make us safer.

For that reason... and given that we both agree that the amount of illegal firearms that are in circulation are also responsible for firearm violence and crime... I am all for any and all laws that will serve to reduce the amount of illegal firearms in circulation. Regardless of reasonable restriction on "right".

I find it extremely counterproductive that almost everyregulation of firearms is demonized as an attack of 2nd amendment rights. I also think it nonsense when the 2nd is held up as a means of somehow being able to defend yourself against the government. That's laughable.

Less regulation, more access is not the answer!
The abortion wackjob that was shot on the corner and the guy that was shot at the gravel pit were killed by a guy with multiple legal weapons. He was also a mental case. It wouldn't have mattered if either of the people he killed were carrying, concealed or otherwise. They could have been walking around with AR-15s over their shoulders and they still would have gotten it.

In the closest I've ever been to a firearm murder... a guy (60 some years old married 30+ years ex cop?), 1/4 mile from where I was working shot his wife in the face in the parking lot of a bank across the street from the police station and just drove off. He had financial troubles he had been hiding from her.

As above, it isn't a matter of people knowing whether you're carrying or not making you a target of a shooting. It's a matter of you being less likely to defend yourself.

You want that gun to defend yourself against the 700 people who might kill and rob you when there are 2600 who want to shoot you in the back of the head because you pissed them off. The numbers aren't in your favor.

Laws that would reduce illegal weapons will knock down that 700 robbery murders number. Laws that would limit access would knock down the 2600 pissed off people murdering you.

Reducing firearm restrictions would increase both... certainly the former.

You're assuming people will obey the law.

I have no problem with barring violent criminals from owning guns, which is current law. There are already laws on the books to prevent diagnosed mental defectives from purchasing a gun.

What do you propose?

Waiting period?
Registration of every gun?
X-number of guns per year?
Ammo etching?
Added tax?
Manufacturing quotas?
Ban the import of guns?
No carry allowed?
10-round magazine capacity maximum?
9mm caliber maximum?
4" barrel minimum?
Drug testing at time of purchase?
Mental health test at time of purchase?
Mandated training?
IQ test?

I want to know the left's 'common sense' solutions. I also don't want them interfering with 99.99% of gun owners who are stand-up citizens.