taking over a nation for it's own good.

[Epidemic]

is it ever a good thing to take a country over for it's own good?

With Haiti as an example would it simply not be better to have the world community Take that piece of crap over and impose top down government replacement?

with the police and judicial portions controlled by foreign multinational force imposing mutually agreed to in the international community.








or is it better to just send aid to a sytem that is broken and it will improve itself in due time?

[Steve R Jones]

Isn't the UNITED STATES in a couple of WARS cause some people want to take over some countries?

[HMMurdock]

Not to mention America is doing such a great job running itself...

[butch81385]

The largest issue that I see, Epi, is that it is sure to lead to a revolt by the people. Even if you are trying to help, humans do not take kindly to being "overtaken" by someone else.

[Epidemic]

so then you vote for giving aid to a broken system and hoping someday it will turn around. but said money will go to fund the broken system.

HMMurdock, The USA is handling itself perfectly compared with Haiti.

Steve R jones,
I don't think I mentioned the USA. I am thinking about the donor countries in general/the UN.



You are right though the current power base who are the current warlords and organized crime types would fight to regain their illigitimate hole on things. They would try to convince the wretched refuse to side against those trying to help.

[butch81385]

I fully agree with your last statements (take a look at the Taliban trying to legitimize itself in Afghanistan to get a better backing by the people).

However, I don't agree with your first statement. It is not a black and white decision (unless you are making it one for the sake of the thread). There are ways to not only donate money for immediate use (food, water, medical, etc), but to also aid in education and economy. Picture a large investment by US financiers to build a business based economy while simultaneously upgrading the trade routes (infrastructure, ports, etc). It could bring a nice pile of money to the poorer people, especially on the north coast, letting them start to make a difference themselves.

There are plenty of other ideas out there too. Some obviously better than others, but nonetheless there is more options than throw money blindly or complete takeover.

[Epidemic]

I don't know much about Haiti, but in that system don't the educated just become the new lords and masters. with corruption being so prevelant is there a way to fix this system by simply getting a well into a neighborhood and giving a kid an 8th grade education?

[butch81385]

The educated are able to take advantage of the uneducated. Get better education to all and that edge disappears.

[Epidemic]

fair enough but I envision the system as so broken as to not be possible with out vast changes.

As in the internation take over of the country. otherwise you are just talking about generations of helping a few people and no progress toward the goal of a society with out an edge.

[butch81385]

Yes and no. In the city there would need to be a lot of changes. When you move up into the central plateau, people are already banding together and helping each other as equals. Many of these villages have privately funded schools and orphanages which are helping. In Pandiassou there is a group of Brothers and Sisters (religious) helping to educate and employ the locals in the village. The nearest City (Henche) still has issues, but Pandiassou has almost all of the kids in school learning basic education as well as opportunities for learning English, etc. It is making a difference.

[Epidemic]

I guess when you look at it as individuals helped you do help. but if the system is as broken as it is. The aid never stops and the progress never happens. the few in the outlying areas can never project their new found education and skills into the city with out becoming part of the problem.... so the system wont ever improve.

[butch81385]

Why do you say that? I think that they can bring it into the city without getting corrupted themselves (though admittedly it would be a long process). In addition, what if it continues to grow in those outlying areas? Eventually they will overtake the larger cities in terms of the education. Now the next US investor comes down and builds a place up there instead of in PaP.

I am a believer that there is always hope. In addition I believe that any of those innocent people are worth me trying to save from starvation, violence, etc.

[Epidemic]

Why do you say that? I think that they can bring it into the city without getting corrupted themselves (though admittedly it would be a long process). In addition, what if it continues to grow in those outlying areas? Eventually they will overtake the larger cities in terms of the education. Now the next US investor comes down and builds a place up there instead of in PaP.

I am a believer that there is always hope. In addition I believe that any of those innocent people are worth me trying to save from starvation, violence, etc.

you are much more wise in the understanding of the potential that is in these schools. my feeling is that they are too far and few between that any benefits are lost over time by attrition. you are helping so few that they are the proverbial stone in the ocean. in the end other than the stone it make no difference to the ocean. Generation after generation of these educated folks will be corrupt or crushed in larger quantities than they are made. Perhaps some day there will be a ghandi type who stands up to it and survives or is martyred in such a way as to achieve some great change. But until then I see generational suffering.

is there a way to actually make changes within a lifetime to avoid many life times of suffering. Is there a bitter pill of being made a protectorate or member of some international coalition like the EU where participation in said union would require changes on a schedule.

[EXreaction]

History has shown how wonderfully it has worked for one nation to try to impose their own systems/beliefs on another nation or group of people.

To be honest, anyone who thinks it can be successful or is a good idea needs to think a little more critically and try to imagine what they would do if the roles were reversed and some other country was trying to change the system/beliefs of their own nation or group. I can guarantee that anyone who thinks they should impose their own system/beliefs on others would despise and fight back against some other nation trying to impose the same things on their own nation.

[Chuckiechan]

Haiti's big problem is lack of opportunity and too high of a birthrate, coupled with an ineffective, corrupt government.

Time to roll some heads!

[Epidemic]

History has shown how wonderfully it has worked for one nation to try to impose their own systems/beliefs on another nation or group of people.

To be honest, anyone who thinks it can be successful or is a good idea needs to think a little more critically and try to imagine what they would do if the roles were reversed and some other country was trying to change the system/beliefs of their own nation or group. I can guarantee that anyone who thinks they should impose their own system/beliefs on others would despise and fight back against some other nation trying to impose the same things on their own nation.

Actually sir you are not up on your history. it is how all nations formed. Well how many nations formed. China Europe and much of the world are all just conglomerations of conquered peoples from smaller kingdoms. I actually am proposing something much more benevolent than conquering them for their land. but rather conquering their leaders and offering them change hopefully with the legitimacy of a world coalition.

[EXreaction]

Seems that (beside the entire point of the look back to history) you missed the part about thinking critically and putting yourself in the the shoes of another person in that nation.

[Epidemic]

Seems that (beside the entire point of the look back to history) you missed the part about thinking critically and putting yourself in the the shoes of another person in that nation.

Bwahahaahah nice dodge there.

If I lived in Haiti I would want change. I would not have nationalism and or fear of losing what I have. I would welcome the modern world bringing law and order human rights and general improvement to my little corner of hell.

[EXreaction]

I assume you've been to Haiti yourself then? Or have you even been to any third world country (or any other country at all)?

[butch81385]

Bwahahaahah nice dodge there.

If I lived in Haiti I would want change. I would not have nationalism and or fear of losing what I have. I would welcome the modern world bringing law and order human rights and general improvement to my little corner of hell.

And if China wanted to come take over our government for our own good? After all, we (as a nation) are statistically angry at and fed up with our current government. Congress has a huge disapproval rating, yet they keep getting voted back in. Why aren't we changing our own country?

Now the Chinese idealists may say that they could help us revamp our country. What would you say if they did? How long until a power-hungry person wants to do more to our country?

How would you feel?