These are the legs, here are the arms, this is where the brain is supposed to be...

[Gomer]

Oops... never mind that last part. The new law in OK is that the doctor doesn't have to tell you that the fetus has birth defects if they don't want to!!!!

The second measure passed into law Tuesday protects doctors from malpractice suits if they decide not to inform the parents of a unborn baby that the fetus has birth defects. The intent of the bill is to prevent parents from later suing doctors who withhold information to try to influence them against having an abortion.

How's that for tort reform?

[SiliconJon]

WTHFF!

[Whir]

Wow.

[Theophylact]

The law compels doctors to "inform" their patients that their fetus has a beating heart, but it immunizes them if they decide to conceal that it doesn't have a brain. It completely inverts doctors' ethical obligations to their patients.

[SiliconJon]

You mean like Liberals?

Do you deliberately aim to derail all the positive points you make with drivel like that?

[tony_j15]

Though other states have passed similar measures requiring women to have ultrasounds, Oklahoma’s law goes further, mandating that a doctor or technician set up the monitor so the woman can see it and describe the heart, limbs and organs of the fetus. No exceptions are made for rape and incest victims.

Look at the beating heart of your brother's child. LOOK AT IT.

That's not emotionally or psychologically damaging at all, right?

[HMMurdock]

So doctors are allowed to expect you to make decisions without giving you all the information?

What a f$%@ing crock...

[Steve R Jones]

A woman goes in for an ABORTION after spending a good deal of time thinking about it.

She is now forced to listen the heartbeat.

You Guys think it's important that she also know that the baby might not have a brain.

WHY?

Do you think maybe she'll change her mind so she can carry the baby to full term and then bury it?

[Gomer]

A woman goes in for an ABORTION after spending a good deal of time thinking about it.

She is now forced to listen the heartbeat.

You Guys think it's important that she also know that the baby might not have a brain.

WHY?

Do you think maybe she'll change her mind so she can carry the baby to full term and then bury it?

These are not women going in for an abortion. These are women who are going in for normal prenatal care. Those doctors are the ones who have been granted permission to withhold information regarding birth defects from their patients to prevent them from considering an abortion.

[Epidemic]

Wow!!!

[SiliconJon]

Look at the beating heart of your brother's child. LOOK AT IT.

That's not emotionally or psychologically damaging at all, right?

I've never read/heard that before - that there are laws requiring the mother see and hear that which they are about to abort. While I'm a balance between free choice and life guy*, I find that to be a fantastic idea. I can understand the likely need for rape and incest victims to need an escape from that, though. They're already suffering enough distress. That debate could go much deeper, though.

* Have science determine a point at which it's actually a baby, such as a beating heart or brain activity, go backwards a few weeks to be safe, set the limit there.

There's no rational or ligitimate excuse for allowing doctors to withhold information from the mother/patient, though. That's just beyond insane to me.

[Steve R Jones]

These are not women going in for an abortion. These are women who are going in for normal prenatal care. Those doctors are the ones who have been granted permission to withhold information regarding birth defects from their patients to prevent them from considering an abortion.

Did you read the article YOU Linked too?

Then WHY Is the article you linked too called:
Strict Abortion Measures Enacted in Oklahoma

HOUSTON — The Oklahoma Legislature voted Tuesday to override the governor’s vetoes of two abortion measures, one of which requires women to undergo an ultrasound and listen to a detailed description of the fetus before getting an abortion.

[Whir]

But the birth defect thing seems simply linked to the abortion laws. The article doesn't state that this is only in the case of a mother considering abortion, the measure covers 100% of ultrasounds done by OK doctors. In other words, a woman could go in for her normal prenatal care and where she would normally find out the fetus is damaged and will result in a child plagued by health problems which she might decide it more prudent to abort, the doctor can just not tell her. She would be expecting a normal, happy and healthy baby and be shocked to learn her child will struggle to live its entire life. But the doctor is now covered by law to stick her with his moral choice.

To leave this in the narrow alley of pro-choice/pro-life debate is to ignore the overall issue. The law gives doctors the right to withhold important life-changing information from patients, just because the overly fundamental Christian government in Oklahoma thinks it knows what's better for people than the people do.

[tony_j15]

Have science determine a point at which it's actually a baby, such as a beating heart or brain activity, go backwards a few weeks to be safe, set the limit there.

Science cannot determine it legitimately. It's an ethical/philosophical question. I do think an overarching agreement can be made, but you'd have to cut out anyone from NARAL or NRL to make progress.

Steve: it seems you do not understand the entirety of the law. One (there were two passed) protects doctors from reprisal for with-holding information of the fetus/child's pre-natal health regardless of whether the mother is seeking an abortion.

[SiliconJon]

Science cannot determine it legitimately. It's an ethical/philosophical question. I do think an overarching agreement can be made, but you'd have to cut out anyone from NARAL or NRL to make progress.

Exactly what I meant

[tony_j15]

we should start a panel, then.

[Steve R Jones]

Steve: it seems you do not understand the entirety of the law. One (there were two passed) protects doctors from reprisal for with-holding information of the fetus/child's pre-natal health regardless of whether the mother is seeking an abortion.

Your right. Guess my drugs have worn off now.

GOMER - my bad. Sorry.

[Gomer]

Your right. Guess my drugs have worn off now.

GOMER - my bad. Sorry.

No worries. I can understand your disbelief. It's just that implausible of a repugnant law isn't it?

[bigBonehead]

Physicians used the moral cannons of the Church in most regions of the Ancient World to justify their treatments... Unfortunately, that misguided ethic is still the most widely excepted way to practice Medicine today. They do not do what's best for the Patient IMO. In that way, most are still playing God.