May 6th, 2010, 02:21 AM #1
"There is No Country for Old Men."
Social Security is rapidly collapsing into a Ponzi scheme as the number to young workers to the number of older recipients is dropping. Americans are living longer. One can venture a guess that the familiy sizes of native Americans is smaller than that of immigrants who --illigal or no --provide a stream for a younger population.
Having said that, we need to look at the Question of Immigration with dour eyes.
If every single illegal alien living in the United States were to be naturalized today, there would simply be another wave of immigrants tomorrow --until the wages for unskilled labour were to drop to the Mexican level.
Moreover, those now naturalized immigrants themselves would oppose another wave of immigration because of the compitition for scarce resources/jobs etc. We would be right back to where we are--but with a lower standatrd of living for all.
As in all amnesty bills it creates the expectation of yet another amnesty bill resulting in an even higher rate of illegal immigration. One of the purposes of immigration restrictions is to maintain the cultural and linguistic nature of a country. This has already been probably irrevocabable altered in various parts of the United States.
Moreover, there are business --like agribusiness that rely heavily on immigration.
California whines about the high cost of illegal immigrants --yet provides the incentive for border-jumping by hiring them. Since this is done at reduced wages--as little as two dollars an hour, there is a stong incentive to hire illegals. at lower wages. Historically, big Business has favored lax immigration, while Organized Labour has opposed it.
Talk is cheap and whining is cheaper--but is there a willingness to actually stop hiring illegal immigrants? Untill there is a willingness to address the harsh realities of immigration to the United States, there will not be a solution. Perhaps the only solution is the one nobody wants to talk about.
The reality is to allow nobody in from Mexico and other major souces of illigal immigrants --or to allow everybody in. The policy Arizona has adopted would work only if every State were Arizona. Given how porous our border is, putting up a No Immigration policy would only slow the rate. Putting up a moderate rate would create a flood.
With Social Security in deeper trouble that is being let on, can we really afford a broadening social network that immigration requires? Or for that matter, the army of border patrols to seal off a porous border? This is the Great American Immigration Dilemma.
May 6th, 2010, 02:54 AM #2
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Berlin Wall for the US/Mexico border? I guess they'd still come by boat...
May 6th, 2010, 03:46 AM #3
That's why they shouldn't be naturalized right away, let them work several years (5-10) until they are allowed to become citizens
they would have to pay Social securities but only get them if they work those 5-10 years
and PS: the biggest mess is the credit system, too much dept and not enough savings which is an problem for most of the american public. private savings have to be enforced.
Social security works as long as the people don't depend on it. they have to create there own safety net as well which most people don't do because they just can't think ahead or have to buy that new TV with 3D capability.
May 6th, 2010, 09:53 PM #4
What does Switzerland do with illegal immigrants?
May 6th, 2010, 09:59 PM #5
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May 6th, 2010, 10:37 PM #6
May 7th, 2010, 12:55 AM #7
It is always nice to be able to tell people --in other Countries --how they should run their immigration policy;maybe not so nice to learn how America keeps falling short of Switzerland.Originally Posted by Creatures
As for Switzerland, see the movie Love and Chocolate (?), about a poor Italian immigrant trying to survive in Switzerland. Still....always nice to hear how Switzerland does it better as told to you by a Swiss.
Like with any "solutions" one does have to look at whether the "cure" is worse than...etc.Originally Posted by Whir
As for boats, well this brings to mind Vietnamese living in small boats...whole families, when the mood after the failure in Vietnam was to let them in. Visit California, especially around San Jose area and see how well they and their descendants are doing. It’s not only fair, but smart to keep in mind the contributions that immigrants have made.
If you start with the most basic of premises: Any Immigration Reform Bill should not make things worse This the most minimal requirement for reform, and proceed from there.
Can a Law be both Fair and Smart? If a law can is proposed that is one but not the other, which should go by the wayside?
There is one thing I believe I can safely advocate for anybody to look at before advocating any immigration reform: What are you willing to live with? But remember, even that is a two-edged sword: what would happen to Restaurant prices –or even their existence –if two-dollar-an-hour labor was not admitted –or stopped at the Border. Restaurant prices may seem trivial but if we can't even address the minimal, how are we going to address the major --like $2 an hour labour?
This why I would not presume to tell anyone from another Country, say Switzerland, what its immigration policy should be –I won’t have to live with the changes.
I can't see any "solution" and bear in mind rules and laws are only as good or bad as their enforcement--that doesn’t' both harm and help, often with the same stroke. I don't think too many people would argue that this is an easily tractable or "cheerful" issue. Maybe the best that could be hoped is that the "solution" isn't far worse than the problem.
Last edited by MegalosSkylaki; May 8th, 2010 at 04:20 AM. Reason: TOO LONG a POST
May 7th, 2010, 05:27 AM #8
I'm not telling you what to do, I just state my opinion. Switzerland has experience massive immigration after the fall of the soviet union (I'm actually a second generation immigrant) that's why most of Europe's wealthier countries have constructed a pretty tight immigration policy. Although the EU changed that dramatically.
All I can tell you is what we have here and how it affects normal people. For example prices, you addressed that fact and i can only support it, a change in wages can have an immense change in actual prices. Switzerland is one of the more expensive countries because we have nearly no illegal working forces which could help to drop the prices (although we have seasonal immigrant workers from italy)
When I say america depends on cheap working forces I'm not just talking out of my ass (even though I have my moments ;p). They keep the prices down.
As I said, let them in, let them work for your social security and give them after several years the citizenship, let them earn it this way.
I was never in favor of illegal immigrants as some of you might think, I'm just against the wrong generalisation of them.
May 7th, 2010, 07:53 AM #9
May 8th, 2010, 04:19 AM #10
I would lean heavily toward to not upsetting too profoundly the cultural and values dimension. I remember immigrants going to night school to learn the language and deliberately acquiring the culture of the "new land" and its language.
Many recent immigrants simply view this as an extension of their own cultures and seem to expect Americans to adapt to their values, rather than the reverse. France took the extraordinary step of trying to legislate secular practices in a free republic. Does it make any more sense trying to force secularism down a non-secular people's throat than to try to force religion?
Ataturk Kemal undertook to enforce that in the newly-formed Republic of Turkey. It is called Laicism and almost a century later, it remains an unresolved issue.
This is by no means a pleasant thing to write, but as I wrote in post # 1, "Until there is a willingness to address the harsh realities of immigration to the United States, there will not be a solution. Perhaps the only solution is the one nobody wants to talk about." One of the harsh realities is do we want allow large numbers of people into the United States that walk around in habits that show only their eyes—or as in the case of burkhas –not even that. Be honest about that.
Can we maintain the Social Contract that is overtly in our Constitution when major immigrant groups openly does not believe in the Bill of Rights in it. Admittedly, many many Americans also do not believe in the Bill of Rights if put to the test, but at least the cultural norm holds it as something to strive for in principle—even if sought to be evaded in practice.
This leads me to a major irony of Immigration policy: The people we are trying to keep out --when you look at Human nature--are more like us than they are different. I believe this is the major problem in drafting an immigration policy: they are our brothers and sisters, and what they demand, we cannot give them.
May 8th, 2010, 06:36 AM #11
You read more into my sentences just because you don't like me. I only defend them because some accuse them to be just criminals who kidnap and fill American kids full of drugs.
and as i said, they were tight BEFORE the EU, now it's pretty easy to work in another country (within the EU and Switzerland, we have treaties that allow it)
May 8th, 2010, 08:25 AM #12
TSA Employee Assaults Boss Who Insulted His Genitalia
See Draboo's post...
Back to topic...
If I (we ) knew who the illegals that were selling drugs and raping kids, don't you think our law enforcement would single them out ??? But the thing is, they are all breaking our laws, using MY resources, and adding ,exponentially , to the deficit ( which is primarily due to our crooked law makers) See, the average American citizen is getting the shaft every which way we turn and those who are supposed to protect , are filling their pockets and draining ours. And people are pissed and frustrated without any recourse. That's what YOU don't seem to understand and why some of us get riled up and make comments that seem more personal than they really are.
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