Rape Babies.

[butch81385]

So the government should be allowed to infere in peoples lives by banning abortions?

Amazing how some people only like the government when it's convenient for them...

So the government should allow one person to interfere with the life of another person by ending that life?

Amazing how some people only want the government to mind it's own business when it's convenient for them...

Should the government "interfere" if the mother wants to kill her 1 day old baby? What is the difference?

[Creatures]

there are abortionists that would actually agree with killing a baby before it's self aware, those are the hard liners and they know that most people won't agree to this because it's to graphic.

But the question is, do you think Artificial insemination is OK? because what I know from it is that a lot of those get discarded or "killed" you would say. I just can't accept the fact that only the merging of DNA is already a new human being, its far from it, it would NEVER become human if the mother wasn't there.

Creatures

[Epidemic]

It can react to stimuli it can not feel pain. there is a nerve network forming and there can be a response to pain. That is a far cry from feeling pain in my book.

in order to feel pain you have to recognize it. there is no higher reason in an 8 week old fetus.

it would be akin to responses to pain while in a coma. yes jab your foot with a needle and the body reacts but wake the person up and they will not know they were jabbed with a pin.

So in technical terms I am not sure if it feels pain but with out a brain and reason I would have to say An 8 week old fetus does not feel pain or rather it is irrelevant pain akin to shocking a recently dead frog. AFAIAC


The murder thing is a hard one. i don't consider it murder, but if you want to categorize it that way then I will have the 8 week old fetus removed and you can raise it.

the line is also that viability is a term of being able to live on it's own you can still keep a baby alive with any mother. This is why we can take children from bad mothers even as little babies. you can see the difference. if you can' t then go to the abortion clinic and start raising the aborted fetus with your wife as the wetnurse . But my wife is still allowed to evict the little pre sucker.

BTW that was an example don't waste your time we are not having an abortion next tuesday.

[butch81385]

The idea of artificial insemination does not bother me, but the waste associated with current practices absolutely bothers me, and I considered it just as grievous. And in response to other potential questions, I do consider contraception and masturbation the same, and the body's ejection of unused eggs or sperm is natural and necessary due to their "shelf life."

As for the merging DNA, doesn't this new DNA signify that it is a new independent entity? Each person's DNA is unique, even more so than a fingerprint... That DNA is more of your identity than is your hair color, skin color, thoughts, jobs, and actions. Those can all be changed, altered, manipulated, etc., but your DNA IS you.

[Creatures]

The DNA is nothing but a building order, the personality that grows is what makes humans humans. IMO until the brain is not working it's just a pile of cells not a human AKA potential human.

Creatures

[Epidemic]

yes your DNA is your basic building blocks but it takes more than just DNA to make you. You are mostly your brain. in fact we call people with fully functional DNA dead when their brain ceases function. So unless you have a brain specifically cerebral function you are not considered to be alive.

let me prove to you that there is a different value for a zygot you went to a fertility clinic on tuesday just before your revolation that it was bad. your zygot is now put on ice waiting implantation. A fire breaks out in the building where your zygot is crygenically stored the day you went for implantation. would you save your wife or the 10 babies frozen there. (hypothetically you can transport the babies with out their destruction). but your wife is unconscious. the choice is your wife or 10 babies. 10 little lives waiting in frozen suspended animation awaiting their chance to live.

right there you have already proven that the babies have less value than a human. even if the choice was with a stranger I venture to say you would say sorry you 10 little cheribs you can bake baby.

[butch81385]

It can react to stimuli it can not feel pain. there is a nerve network forming and there can be a response to pain. That is a far cry from feeling pain in my book.

in order to feel pain you have to recognize it. there is no higher reason in an 8 week old fetus.

it would be akin to responses to pain while in a coma. yes jab your foot with a needle and the body reacts but wake the person up and they will not know they were jabbed with a pin.

So in technical terms I am not sure if it feels pain but with out a brain and reason I would have to say An 8 week old fetus does not feel pain or rather it is irrelevant pain akin to shocking a recently dead frog. AFAIAC


The murder thing is a hard one. i don't consider it murder, but if you want to categorize it that way then I will have the 8 week old fetus removed and you can raise it.

the line is also that viability is a term of being able to live on it's own you can still keep a baby alive with any mother. This is why we can take children from bad mothers even as little babies. you can see the difference. if you can' t then go to the abortion clinic and start raising the aborted fetus with your wife as the wetnurse . But my wife is still allowed to evict the little pre sucker.

BTW that was an example don't waste your time we are not having an abortion next tuesday.

If you poke a 1 year old with a pin, it won't remember that in probably 5 minutes. Similarly, an elderly person with Alzheimer would just as easily "not know that they were jabbed with a pin".

Some more reading on the subject (copy and pasted from another website):

A more technical description would add that changes in heart rate and fetal movement also suggest that intrauterine manipulations are painful to the fetus. Volman & Pearson, "What the Fetus Feels," British Med. Journal, Jan. 26, 1980, pp. 233-234.

Pain can be detected when nociceptors (pain receptors) discharge electrical impulses to the spinal cord and brain. These fire impulses outward, telling the muscles and body to react. These can be measured. Mountcastle, Medical Physiology, St. Louis: C.V. Mosby, pp. 391-427 "Lip tactile response may be evoked by the end of the 7th week. At 11 weeks, the face and all parts of the upper and lower extremities are sensitive to touch. By 13 1/2 to 14 weeks, the entire body surface, except for the back and the top of the head, are sensitive to pain." S. Reinis & J. Goldman, The Development of the Brain C. Thomas Pub., 1980

"Real time ultrasonography, fetoscopy, study of the fetal EKG (electrocardiogram) and fetal EEG (electroencephalogram) have demonstrated the remarkable responsiveness of the human fetus to pain, touch, and sound. That the fetus responds to changes in light intensity within the womb, to heat, to cold, and to taste (by altering the chemical nature of the fluid swallowed by the fetus) has been exquisitely documented in the pioneering work of the late Sir William Lily — the father of fetology." (Excerpt from a letter to President Reagan written by a group of professors, including pain specialists and two past presidents of the American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology)

As for you stating that their response is similar to an electrically stimulated muscle, that is just far fetched. A fetus reacts one way to touch by a blunt object, and in a completely different way to a sharp object. See above published comments for more on this.

As to the murder comments. If you do not believe that killing a 1 year old baby is murder, why are you not advocating for parents' rights on that front?

And as to your comment about needing that specific mother, there has actually been progress made in "artificial wombs", though mostly for the wrong reasons (growing fetuses for "harvesting" cells and organs).

Maybe one day a mother can put her baby up for adoption before the long pregnancy period...

Until then, don't get pregnant unless you want to have a baby...

[butch81385]

let me prove to you that there is a different value for a zygot you went to a fertility clinic on tuesday just before your revolation that it was bad. your zygot is now put on ice waiting implantation. A fire breaks out in the building where your zygot is crygenically stored the day you went for implantation. would you save your wife or the 10 babies frozen there. (hypothetically you can transport the babies with out their destruction). but your wife is unconscious. the choice is your wife or 10 babies. 10 little lives waiting in frozen suspended animation awaiting their chance to live.

right there you have already proven that the babies have less value than a human. even if the choice was with a stranger I venture to say you would say sorry you 10 little cheribs you can bake baby.

You can use the same scenario to prove that 5 homeless men have less value than a brain surgeon... Less value does not indicate NO value, especially when that value is purely subjective.

[Epidemic]

once again

I would not kill a savant or any other semi functional human body unless it was not viable.

I did not say I felt killing a 1 year old was ok. I believe protections begin after the vagina. and I might even push that back to viability.

When you butch can decide to raise my kid then perhaps any abortion should be performed in tact so that you butch can have it.


I would not even be against having the right to evict the little formless tenenat at any point for you to care for. but it might be a waste of time before viability.

[Epidemic]

You can use the same scenario to prove that 5 homeless men have less value than a brain surgeon... Less value does not indicate NO value, especially when that value is purely subjective.

too true but there is a point when less value no longer is conferred the right to demand a woman go to term.

would you save your dog or the 10 frozen embreyos?

personally I would save my sandwich!

. For example, the myelin sheath—the insulating cover on nerve pathways that is required for efficient conduction of pain signals—does not begin forming around nervous system cells (neurons) in the spinal cord until about 24 weeks, and not till after birth in most of the cerebral cortex.[6],[7],[8] Although sporadic brain waves can be detected by about 21 weeks gestation, genuine continuous brain waves do not begin until about 28 weeks,[9] indicating that the nerve circuits needed to carry pain impulses to the brain are not connected till then.

other sources indicate similar findings.

in the time frame from 0 to 20 weeks it would appear that there is no serious belief that there is pain due to the immature nervous system

[butch81385]

once again



I did not say I felt killing a 1 year old was ok. I believe protections begin after the vagina. and I might even push that back to viability.

Why use an arbitrary "boundary" of passing through the vagina? What identifiable difference does that make to the baby's right to life?

As for viability, what specifically does the baby need to be able to do on it's own for you to consider it viable? Breathe? 23 weeks seems to be the accepted cut-off for when a fetus would be able to breathe and survive outside of the womb. Would you agree with an end to abortions after 23 weeks?


So, to recap:
Cognitive ability and self awareness: Doesn't happen until well after birth. Not suitable as a sole means of determining "humanness"
Pain: Multiple pain specialists, OBGYNs, and others agree that a fetus can feel pain as early as 8 weeks into the pregnancy. If this is the only determining point no abortions should be allowed after the 8th week of pregnancy.
Passing through the birth canal: Arbitrary boundary that serves no purpose in the argument other than calling it a fetus or a baby. Even the aborted fetus has to leave the mother's body at some point!
Viability: If used as the sole means of determining the rights of the baby, no abortions should be permitted after the 23rd week of pregnancy.

Have any other excuses you use to make yourself feel better about your decision? I mean, we can keep bouncing from excuse to excuse all day if you want, but when I look at the above list and see that a fetus is as self aware as a new born, can feel pain at 8 weeks, and can live on it's own at 23 weeks, I see a perfectly good reason to not kill a fetus at any point.... Now, if you can look at those facts and still say "Kill the kid", then there is probably no point in arguing against you as you apparently have so many sets of blinders on that you can't see facts that are sitting in front of your face.

[butch81385]

other sources indicate similar findings.

in the time frame from 0 to 20 weeks it would appear that there is no serious belief that there is pain due to the immature nervous system

Here is some more info on the gray area of pain "feeling vs. acknowledgement"
Does the Fetus Feel Pain? Summary of a Presentation given by Dr. Paul Ranalli on Pain, Fetal Development, and Partial-birth abortion

Either way, am I allowed to shoot you in your sleep? I will guarantee that you won't feel any pain

[brandon184]

This isn't the 19th century. A woman should have every right to decide what happens with her body. She should have the right to make a difficult decision to terminate potential life if that is her choice. And the last people who should be deciding whether or not a woman should have that right are men and delusional religious types.

[butch81385]

This isn't the 3rd century. We should not allow today's version of infanticide. A woman does not have the right to decide what happens to her child's body. Men have just an equal right to decide what happens to their children. Humans have an equal right to decide what happens to all of the children.

You are right, though, that a woman has a choice.... She can choose whether or not to get pregnant in the first place. Before you go off on a rant on how contraception isn't 100% and this and that, I can say that after being on this earth for 25 years, I have managed to not get a single girl pregnant... and really it wasn't that hard to do...

And I am sorry that I am so "delusional" that I don't want innocent babies killed... Maybe I can instead be "enlightened" and believe that it's not my fault or problem if someone else wants to kill babies; I'll just pretend that the baby isn't human...

[brandon184]

A woman does not have the right to decide what happens to her child's body.

Sure she does, as long as that body is using her as a host.

Men have just an equal right to decide what happens to their children.

No they don't. A man's role in the procreation process is trivial. How can you equate 30 seconds of thrusting to 9 months of pregnancy? When a man's body is being used a host for another life, then he will have a right to decide. Until then he needs to respect a woman's right to make decisions for her own wellbeing.

And I am sorry that I am so "delusional" that I don't want innocent babies killed... Maybe I can instead be "enlightened" and believe that it's not my fault or problem if someone else wants to kill babies; I'll just pretend that the baby isn't human...

It has nothing to do with advocating murder or "killing of babies". It's a practical issue and it's a divide between those who view things from a scientific perspective and those who feel that things are determined and decided by their god and what to do good before they arrive at the whimsical pearly gates.

[Epidemic]

Why use an arbitrary "boundary" of passing through the vagina? What identifiable difference does that make to the baby's right to life?

As for viability, what specifically does the baby need to be able to do on it's own for you to consider it viable? Breathe? 23 weeks seems to be the accepted cut-off for when a fetus would be able to breathe and survive outside of the womb. Would you agree with an end to abortions after 23 weeks?


So, to recap:
Cognitive ability and self awareness: Doesn't happen until well after birth. Not suitable as a sole means of determining "humanness"
Pain: Multiple pain specialists, OBGYNs, and others agree that a fetus can feel pain as early as 8 weeks into the pregnancy. If this is the only determining point no abortions should be allowed after the 8th week of pregnancy.
Passing through the birth canal: Arbitrary boundary that serves no purpose in the argument other than calling it a fetus or a baby. Even the aborted fetus has to leave the mother's body at some point!
Viability: If used as the sole means of determining the rights of the baby, no abortions should be permitted after the 23rd week of pregnancy.

Have any other excuses you use to make yourself feel better about your decision? I mean, we can keep bouncing from excuse to excuse all day if you want, but when I look at the above list and see that a fetus is as self aware as a new born, can feel pain at 8 weeks, and can live on it's own at 23 weeks, I see a perfectly good reason to not kill a fetus at any point.... Now, if you can look at those facts and still say "Kill the kid", then there is probably no point in arguing against you as you apparently have so many sets of blinders on that you can't see facts that are sitting in front of your face.

I guess where we have the pain argument we are at a stand still. yes there is a sypathetic response to stimuli in a fetus. but a sensor that is not hooked up to a computer with memory is not recorded hence I would not consider it. it is like the tree falling in the woods with no one there to hear it. We are probably arguing two sides of the same coin. you put someone in a coma and inflict pain of surgery on them and they do not feel it. even thought you can see the nerves fire and even reflexes fire. with the main computer turned off it equals not recorded and therefore not felt. slicing someone open and pounding a new hip in is painful only while patient is still aware.

back to earlier abortions.

would you save your dog or 10 children in the form of frozen embreyos?

I have no blinders. I don't believe in your god as stated, since there are many gods and beliefs including atheism out there who's should we follow? I have no problem dispatching a lump of cells day 1 -2-3 all the way through week 20 or so. You are demanding a woman keep and bear a child against her will because of your belief. Even though it is directly opposed to her belief. Why does your belief that a lump of cells is human trum hers which says it is not human.

Catholics feel birth control should be banned do you believe this as well? Should we ban the practice of birth control (btw which you are using) why shouldn't their belief trump yours.

should women who have an ardent belief that you are wrong be relagated to back ally and dangerous practices to follow their beliefs.

WHY does your belief trump mine or theirs.

why should something that in practice (in most people minds) has less value than the family dog (which can be put down for peeing on the carpet) come before a womans right to choose how her body is used.

[no1_vern]

This isn't the 19th century. A woman should have every right to decide what happens with her body. She should have the right to make a difficult decision to terminate potential life if that is her choice. And the last people who should be deciding whether or not a woman should have that right are men and delusional religious types.

Should women be allowed to decide what they do with their bodies - esp when the result is from violence/rape?? The list of people linked to above wants to take that decision away from them. Who should decide what society needs in this case? The Government, or women who have been raped?

[butch81385]

No they don't. A man's role in the procreation process is trivial. How can you equate 30 seconds of thrusting to 9 months of pregnancy? When a man's body is being used a host for another life, then he will have a right to decide. Until then he needs to respect a woman's right to make decisions for her own wellbeing.

Try using that as an excuse to not pay child support if the woman does give birth... I'm sure at that point, though, you are more than willing to force the father to give a bunch of money to raise the baby...

I guess where we have the pain argument we are at a stand still. yes there is a sypathetic response to stimuli in a fetus. but a sensor that is not hooked up to a computer with memory is not recorded hence I would not consider it. it is like the tree falling in the woods with no one there to hear it. We are probably arguing two sides of the same coin. you put someone in a coma and inflict pain of surgery on them and they do not feel it. even thought you can see the nerves fire and even reflexes fire. with the main computer turned off it equals not recorded and therefore not felt. slicing someone open and pounding a new hip in is painful only while patient is still aware.

back to earlier abortions.

would you save your dog or 10 children in the form of frozen embreyos?

I have no blinders. I don't believe in your god as stated, since there are many gods and beliefs including atheism out there who's should we follow? I have no problem dispatching a lump of cells day 1 -2-3 all the way through week 20 or so. You are demanding a woman keep and bear a child against her will because of your belief. Even though it is directly opposed to her belief. Why does your belief that a lump of cells is human trum hers which says it is not human.

Catholics feel birth control should be banned do you believe this as well?

should women who have an ardent belief that you are wrong be relagated to back ally and dangerous practices to follow their beliefs.

WHY does your belief trump mine or theirs.

why should something that in practice (in most people minds) has less value than the family dog (which can be put down for peeing on the carpet) come before a womans right to choose how her body is used.

If those 10 embryos were going to be allowed to grow into adult humans, I would save them. If as soon as I saved the embryos I knew that someone was going to just discard them, I would save the dog as it would be allowed to live afterwards.

As far as birth control, I feel that it is morally wrong and personally I will not use it. As far as getting it banned for everyone, I am focusing my efforts on saving the life of fetuses now, and maybe in the future I will look towards saving the potential of life, though in all honesty even with contraceptives banned, people would still be able to go against Catholic teaching on sex, so it is probably a moot point.

As far as why my belief trumps your belief, I think that is is painfully simple and obvious. My belief errs on the side of not killing a human being, as opposed to erring on the side of possibly killing humans in the name of convenience.

Even looking at it from a scientific standpoint, there is a possibility that this fetus feels pain, can survive on it's own, and is inherently human. Science almost always errs on the side of caution.

What are the downsides of having to bring a pregnancy to full term? Inconvenience and health, though almost all pro-lifers will agree that if it comes down to saving the baby or saving the mother, the mother is able to make that choice, taking the health factor out of the equation. All you are left with is the inconvenience of being pregnant. Granted there are psychological effects in the case of rape, but one wrong does not give you permission to perform another wrong, and these cases are much less frequent than most pro-choice propaganda would lead you to believe.

[butch81385]

Should women be allowed to decide what they do with their bodies - esp when the result is from violence/rape?? The list of people linked to above wants to take that decision away from them. Who should decide what society needs in this case? The Government, or women who have been raped?

Hasn't it typically been the job of the government to defend those without a voice or who cannot defend themselves? People such as the poor? The disabled? Why not the unborn?

[Epidemic]

If those 10 embryos were going to be allowed to grow into adult humans, I would save them. If as soon as I saved the embryos I knew that someone was going to just discard them, I would save the dog as it would be allowed to live afterwards.

well not for nothing the 10 embreyos were yours in the hypothetical so you were the one who would choose whether they live or died. so the choice was the living dog buring alive or the vat of liquid nitrogen cooled blobs of cells. so you would save your wifes life before the 10 embreyos but not your dog.

if a catholic fire fighter entered the building should his first priority be to find the doctor or the vat of cells?



your belief that possibly we are killing a human trumps my belief that I am not killing what is known to not think pre 20 weeks.

you seem to be a man of your convictions. congratulations!!!

I hope we avoid having any like minded people elected. although your way may be the safe way. I don't want to be safe. When god gets sick of this then let him set the abortion doctors on fire. if that magically happens again I am all in with your thinking. No bombings don't count I need it to be magically so put out that fuse.


it has been well documented that interrupting the brain from body is effective at pain controll so I know that a zygot feels no pain.

that leaves only the soul to account and that is a belief which is no better than mine.

it this case your belief is fine in your birth control by not imposing it on mine. or the rape victim's or in my daughter's birth control choices.

if my daughter gets knocked up at 16 (I don't suspect but could happen) I will counsel her strongly to get that sucker tossed into a vat and flushed down the drain. no reason for her to ruin her life for some belief that a lump of cells cares whether it is evacuated.