The "Dirty Little Secret Behind the Chevy Volt".... The Rest of the Story............

[MegalosSkylaki]

Let's look at this logically, emperically, economically and then ask the inevitable question.

First, a "plug-in" electrical car--as opposed to one that generates its own electricity while driving--is simply sucking in electricity generated elsewhere and putting more pressure on the grid. If experience is a guide, there will be a loss of energy along the way. This might make sense in highly polluted cities like LA and NYC where the Government could mandate that Taxi and public transportation -on-demand systems would have to use the Volt--except the electric driving range is far too short for a taxi or any public-use vehicle.

As a gasoline car the Volt is carrying around the weight of a battery all the time and the battery itself...well what about its carbon footprint..toxic profile etc.

Hybrid cars share some of there drawbacks, but at least don't require drawdown of the electrical grid. The Volt looks more like a dual-mode car--part of the time on expensive gasoline and part of the time on even more expensive electricity with little or no interaction between the two modes. If it's a "Concept car", who thought up the concept and what were they thinking?

Major cities are "green" --read Nat Geo--in that they combine the demand for resources and that's where the opportunity lies to save gasoline. Look how many cars are just used to get to/from work and how many poor people are forced to maintain them in places like CA. Anybody consider an investment in public transportation as an alternative to converting oil to electricity to go 30 milies?

[Gomer]

Let's look at this logically, emperically, economically and then ask the inevitable question.

Yes... let's!

First, a "plug-in" electrical car--as opposed to one that generates its own electricity while driving--is simply sucking in electricity generated elsewhere and putting more pressure on the grid. If experience is a guide, there will be a loss of energy along the way. This might make sense in highly polluted cities like LA and NYC where the Government could mandate that Taxi and public transportation -on-demand systems would have to use the Volt--except the electric driving range is far too short for a taxi or any public-use vehicle.

"Pressure on the grid"
Let's look at that statement. The grid, all of our electric infrastructure and capacity, is sized for what? The hottest hour of the hottest day of the year. If instead, we could size the grid for our average electrical consumption, those components would be a small fraction of the size. All of that grid for the peak hour of the peak day of the year spends the rest of the time just sitting around being expensive to build and maintain. Especially at night!

At night... there is reverse pressure on the grid. There is pressure to turn renewable source of electricity off! WHAT??????? WHY?????????? To meet that peak hour of the peak day, we have all manners of combustion based power plants. When evening rolls around, you can't just switch them off and wait until you need them again the next day. You can only throttle them back. But you can't effectively stop them from generating electricity. So now at night, you have TOO MUCH ELECTRICITY. So you can do many things, including giving electricity away... or switching off the renewable resources like hydro-electric and wind.

Soooooooooooooooo... from both a logical, empirical, and economical standpoint... more pressure on the grid in the overnight hours is a good thing.

As a gasoline car the Volt is carrying around the weight of a battery all the time and the battery itself...well what about its carbon footprint..toxic profile etc.

Hybrid cars share some of there drawbacks, but at least don't require drawdown of the electrical grid. The Volt looks more like a dual-mode car--part of the time on expensive gasoline and part of the time on even more expensive electricity with little or no interaction between the two modes. If it's a "Concept car", who thought up the concept and what were they thinking?

"Even more expensive electricity"
Electricity can cost as little as 6 cents/kWh in Idaho. We'll look at California though at 14 cents/kWh (the average is 11 cents/kWh).

The Volt has a 16kWh battery pack though it is limited to only using 10kWh of this capacity before the gasoline engine kicks in.

10kWh of electricity in CA costs $1.40 and will let you drive probably 35 miles and upwards of 50 miles before the gasoline kicks in. $1.40 for up to 50 miles. There is some less expensive gasoline option that will get you 50 miles for $1.40???

But let's take it a step further. We talked about the pressure on the grid earlier... let's look at "off-peak" economics. Off-peak rates can be more than half off of regular price electricity. At 7 cents/kWH... you're charging up for $0.70 and driving that 35-50 miles.

"The Volt looks more like a dual-mode car [...] with little or no interaction between the two modes"
There is every interaction between the two modes that there is in a hybrid. When you slow down, that kinetic energy is put back into the battery instead of being wasted away as heat in the brakes. When you stop the car, the engine turns itself off while the battery shoulders the load of the systems that need to keep running. When you hit the gas to go, the battery provides for a seamless transition to internal combustion power again.

"If it's a "Concept car", who thought up the concept and what were they thinking?"
They were thinking that we have all of the excess capacity (including RENEWABLES that we have to shut off) in the grid that we can utilize at night to charge cars while people sleep reducing demand on gasoline for which there is not excess capacity. And we'll give the consumer the best of both worlds! A car they can use for their average daily commute... but at the same time have the liberty to drive it the same distance as any other car on the road without inconvenience.

Conceptually it is sound. It is in its infancy still though. Batteries continue to get lighter and at the same time more robust. Their capacity is increasing. Other storage methods are being researched.

Major cities are "green" --read Nat Geo--in that they combine the demand for resources and that's where the opportunity lies to save gasoline. Look how many cars are just used to get to/from work and how many poor people are forced to maintain them in places like CA. Anybody consider an investment in public transportation as an alternative to converting oil to electricity to go 30 milies?

Tea Party clowns taking stupid to a whole new level

[MegalosSkylaki]

Like I said earlier, Gomer,

Having said that--and I'm not much familiar with the Volt beyond it having a (controversial?) battery--were we to assume that it could sell at the same price of say a Honda Civic, or going upscale, an Accord, what is the case for a Chevy VOLT?

With all do respect--and again I plead ..err..."unfamiliarity", Why would anybody buy it?

While you make a compelling case for the ecology of the automobile, the fact remains that people are not all that altruistic and trying to sell a car based upon its 'draw-down" at "offpeak" from the grid, well that's a hard sell.

Given the present cost, how would you propose doing that?

Hmmm...I did note that da Gomer is the resident Fax checker>>FACTCHECKERS BEWARE!

[pickel]

Like I said earlier, Gomer,


While you make a compelling case for the ecology of the automobile, the fact remains that people are not all that altruistic and trying to sell a car based upon its 'draw-down" at "offpeak" from the grid, well that's a hard sell.

Given the present cost, how would you propose doing that?

Hmmm...I did note that da Gomer is the resident Fax checker>>FACTCHECKERS BEWARE!

Until it comes time for a NEW BATTERY !!!!!!
How much pollution is caused in the production, disposal of the Volt battery ??? Raw materials, manufacture, shipping, installation, but, most of all DISPOSAL. Figure that into the equation ...Then we'll have the R E A L Costs !!!!!

GOBBER

[Beemer]

Keep using the battery of course.

GM, ABB Seek Chevy Volt Battery Afterlife in Grid — Cleantech News and Analysis

[pickel]

Keep using the battery of course.

GM, ABB Seek Chevy Volt Battery Afterlife in Grid — Cleantech News and Analysis

Do you have a "Trade in" allowance on the New battery?? Or do you have to build a unit in your home to take advantage of the 80 % left in the cells. Gonna cost BIG Bucks either way.
How do you pay for all this on unemployment ins and welfare???
The way sales are now..this seems like a pipe dream at the very least...

[Gomer]

Like I said earlier, Gomer,


While you make a compelling case for the ecology of the automobile, the fact remains that people are not all that altruistic and trying to sell a car based upon its 'draw-down" at "offpeak" from the grid, well that's a hard sell.

Given the present cost, how would you propose doing that?

It's present cost is a result of it being cutting edge technology? When has cutting edge technology ever been cheap.

How much of it's present cost is to recoup R&D for the game changing technology?

Roll back the way back machine 10-15 years ago and look at what was said about hybrids in general. They were very expensive and subsidized back then as well. Now they are very successful, very efficient, and very economical. And even with that success, we still have the idiot noise machine prattling on about having to replace the battery in 4 years for $4,000 when that's nowhere near the case.

Why is there all of that noise... some intentional by those with ulterior motives and some through ignorance (some willful, some natural), fabricating reasons that this is a failure? Why all the noise when all the detractors have to say is, "it costs too much for me".

Why, doog, does anyone buy anything but the cheapest of cars? Why do people buy expensive computers to surf the internet? Why do people buy fancy cases with neon lighting and windows?

[MegalosSkylaki]

There is no doubt that consumer psychology is overdetermined by a variety of issues, both public and private, both conscious and unconscious.

With technology there seems to be a devide--a bimodal distribution if you will--between first adopters and late adopters...maybe trimodal as many seem to be willing to be "second into the water". It is an interesting question as to what characterizes the first adopters as they face the highest costs and the highest product risks.

If experience is a guide, it is well-known that with Tech items prices tend to go down while quality tends to go up--unless the item disappears from production as many tech items do.

But look at what you can buy for the same price as a Volt. Alternatively, how much gasoline a cheaper car would allow you to buy. I'm not trying to talk anybody out of buying a Volt and if the benefit analysis you put forth is as described I can see the benefit of flattening the drawdown of the Grid. However, I would think it preferable to do this by decreasing its top end than increasing its bottom end. Still, you get improvements where you can find them.

However, if I recall correctly, the EV was proposed as a vehicle for reducing pollution in major urban areas--like LA and NYC-- and unless it sells big in those areas that mission will be stillborn.

Perhaps the problem with what you call "the noise machine" can be viewed as one of differring perceptions and these themselves are often created by advertising. There is a saying in Business that "nothing happens until somebody buys something" and if people expectations are not met or were unrealistic to start, I can see where social contagion sets in and perceptions are further skewed. 'Uncertainty' I would think is not good for sales regardless of the merits.

On another note heres is one example of unmet expectations and I have no idea who was at fault although advertising is pointed to:
Honda sued over mileage in small claims court - Business - Autos - msnbc.com

Oddly, the findings of Social Psychology are that when people make a large investment in something the want to like it and often overlook any failings in order to do so. [See "cognitive dissonance".]

[MegalosSkylaki]

Why is there all of that noise... some intentional by those with ulterior motives and some through ignorance (some willful, some natural), fabricating reasons that this is a failure? Why all the noise when all the detractors have to say is, "it costs too much for me".

It is a commonplace of human nature that if you create a discrepency between what people are supposed to want (" I want to do the socially resposible thing.") and what they actually want ("I don't wan't to spend the money up front on it") they will go out and self-create all manner of alternative motives ("Well I'd front the extra money to buy one, but my 'gizmo-bop' is flim-flop-floople and I'm a big believer in new gizmo-bops") and they will believe in those alternative motives.

If the decision is a relatively important one--like a high-ticket purchase--any perceived "pressure" such as appealing to social resposibility, even if it takes a positive form such as a $7,500 subsisidy (sometimes especially if it takes a positive form like that) can backfire and result in a psychological process called Reactance wherein people take a negative reaction to positive inducements.

Oddly enough the laboratory models for Medical Psychology came not from Physiological psychology but from Social psychology and and I suspect the Battle of the EV will be partly won or lost not just in technology or economics but also in social psychology.

MegalosSkylaki

[Epidemic]

I was surprised at how easy it was to convert an existing scrap car to EV.

there is a place that sells EV conversion kits starting at $2280
with some un-believable performance claims. if these claims are true I don't know how the big auto makers with all their resources barely best these backyard mechanic frankenstein cars. 61 miles with a chevy-S10

Considering the fact that they are using Lead Acid batteries, I am impressed.


I know that the volt and the leaf offer better mileage but you could be in an EV that bests the volts electric range for under 5,000 bucks. find a nice car with a blown engine, remove it and toss the kit in and poof you is on your way after perhaps a hundred hours of labor

1000 bucks worth of batteries
2280 for kit
100 for a DC heater
1000 bucks for that nice accord with a blown engine.

[Gomer]

I was surprised at how easy it was to convert an existing scrap car to EV.

there is a place that sells EV conversion kits starting at $2280
with some un-believable performance claims. if these claims are true I don't know how the big auto makers with all their resources barely best these backyard mechanic frankenstein cars. 61 miles with a chevy-S10

Considering the fact that they are using Lead Acid batteries, I am impressed.


I know that the volt and the leaf offer better mileage but you could be in an EV that bests the volts electric range for under 5,000 bucks. find a nice car with a blown engine, remove it and toss the kit in and poof you is on your way after perhaps a hundred hours of labor

1000 bucks worth of batteries
2280 for kit
100 for a DC heater
1000 bucks for that nice accord with a blown engine.

No air conditioning
No power steering
No power brakes
No reasonable stopping distance anyway
No 9 second 0-60 time
No room for groceries
No 10 year, 100,000 mile warranty
No quick, reliable charging
No 5-star crash rating!
What do you think happens to a trunk full of lead acid batteries when. You get rear ended, and/or there is a dead short, and/or they outgas a ton of hydrogen into the passenger compartment?

[Epidemic]

I agree that there are perks to the modern car.

disagree about the hydrogen gas problem. There is not a huge reservoir of Hydrogen in automotive batteries. I doubt there would be a cubic foot of hydrogen released if every battery instantly ruptured.

The batteries could be a problem for fire in an accident. But as in the chevy volt I don't think that they would be a explode, more of a slow smolder ultimately resulting in a fire after a time.

The chevy S-10 configuration would probably result in very limited problems.

if you are going to save the environment you should probably build the EV yourself and forego the luxury of power steering power brakes, and 0-60 times. Reclaiming a car destined for the scrap stream and giving it new life would greatly reduce greenhouse gasses associated with creating a new prius, volt or leaf.

AC is a toughy??? perhaps a very small Air conditioning unit or perhaps a small evaporative one. I mean who wants to live in Virginia with out AC The small cab of the S-10 would be ideal for conserving Air conditioning energy.

Stopping time is a problem.

[Gomer]

I agree that there are perks to the modern car.

disagree about the hydrogen gas problem. There is not a huge reservoir of Hydrogen in automotive batteries. I doubt there would be a cubic foot of hydrogen released if every battery instantly ruptured.

The batteries could be a problem for fire in an accident. But as in the chevy volt I don't think that they would be a explode, more of a slow smolder ultimately resulting in a fire after a time.

The chevy S-10 configuration would probably result in very limited problems.

if you are going to save the environment you should probably build the EV yourself and forego the luxury of power steering power brakes, and 0-60 times. Reclaiming a car destined for the scrap stream and giving it new life would greatly reduce greenhouse gasses associated with creating a new prius, volt or leaf.

AC is a toughy??? perhaps a very small Air conditioning unit or perhaps a small evaporative one. I mean who wants to live in Virginia with out AC The small cab of the S-10 would be ideal for conserving Air conditioning energy.

Stopping time is a problem.

Hydrogen is a HUGE problem. It is not a matter of rupture Even the single battery in your car poses a danger if it is overcharged, rapidly discharged, or otherwise malfunctioned/abused. The strong acid in the battery is capable of releasing a significant amount of hydrogen. That is why there are warnings on chargers. That is why you don't make the last connection at the battery of the dead vehicle when you are jumping it (sparks).

See: Automotive battery - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What happens with the 500lbs of batteries in the trunk of your Accord if you hit something head on at 40+ MPH? What keeps them out of the back seat?

What is the lifespan of the batteries in this system?

Sure. You can 61 miles on a single charge... The first time. But how far the 10th? The 100th?

As for your "if you are going to save the environment" comment... Yes, repurpose and reuse! But that doesn't mean the new things should not be efficient. That does not mean we should not advance technologically. Otherwise, 15 years down the road we are still having to repurpose the same inefficient items we are repurposing today.

[Gomer]

See also:

Lead-acid batteries can source of fuel for external explosions or explode internally. Charging a wet lead-acid battery produces hydrogen and oxygen gasses as electrolysis of the water occurs. That is why charging needs to occur in well ventilated areas. While spark retarding vent caps help prevent external battery explosions, a spark can occur when jumping, connecting or disconnecting charger or battery cables and ignite the gas causing an explosion. From the U.S. Department of Energy, DOE-HDBK-1084-95, "Precautions must be routinely practiced to prevent explosions from ignition of the flammable gas mixture of hydrogen and oxygen formed during overcharge of lead-acid cells. The maximum rate of formation is 0.42 L of hydrogen and 0.21 L of oxygen per ampere-hour overcharge at standard temperature and pressure. The gas mixture is explosive when hydrogen in air exceeds 4% by volume." Less common internal explosions usually occur while starting the engine or if the battery is rapidly heated from a short circuit or fire. Normally, an internal battery explosion normally will just blow the filler caps or case cover off the battery and splatter electrolyte all over the engine compartment or battery box.

The most probable cause of internal battery explosions are from a combination of low electrolyte levels below the plates in the battery, a low resistance bridge is formed between or across the top of the plates, and a build up of hydrogen gas in the cell. The low resistive bridge is called "treeing" between the positive and negative plates. When current flows in the battery, a spark can occur and ignite the residual gas in one or more of the cells. A second possible cause is a manufacturing defect in the weld of one of the plate connecting straps causing a spark igniting the residual gas. Another source of internal battery explosions is caused from a direct electrical short across the battery's terminals. The battery rapidly over heats form the high current and can explode. The largest number of internal battery explosions occur in hot climates due to the loss of water in wet "maintenance free" and low maintenance starting batteries. Most internal battery explosions could have been prevented if the plates were always covered with electrolyte. Please see Section*3 for more information on preventive maintenance.

[Epidemic]

Lead-acid batteries can source of fuel for external explosions or explode internally. Charging a wet lead-acid battery produces hydrogen and oxygen gasses as electrolysis of the water occurs. That is why charging needs to occur in well ventilated areas. While spark retarding vent caps help prevent external battery explosions, a spark can occur when jumping, connecting or disconnecting charger or battery cables and ignite the gas causing an explosion. From the U.S. Department of Energy, DOE-HDBK-1084-95, "Precautions must be routinely practiced to prevent explosions from ignition of the flammable gas mixture of hydrogen and oxygen formed during overcharge of lead-acid cells. The maximum rate of formation is 0.42 L of hydrogen and 0.21 L of oxygen per ampere-hour overcharge at standard temperature and pressure. The gas mixture is explosive when hydrogen in air exceeds 4% by volume." Less common internal explosions usually occur while starting the engine or if the battery is rapidly heated from a short circuit or fire. Normally, an internal battery explosion normally will just blow the filler caps or case cover off the battery and splatter electrolyte all over the engine compartment or battery box.

The most probable cause of internal battery explosions are from a combination of low electrolyte levels below the plates in the battery, a low resistance bridge is formed between or across the top of the plates, and a build up of hydrogen gas in the cell. The low resistive bridge is called "treeing" between the positive and negative plates. When current flows in the battery, a spark can occur and ignite the residual gas in one or more of the cells. A second possible cause is a manufacturing defect in the weld of one of the plate connecting straps causing a spark igniting the residual gas. Another source of internal battery explosions is caused from a direct electrical short across the battery's terminals. The battery rapidly over heats form the high current and can explode. The largest number of internal battery explosions occur in hot climates due to the loss of water in wet "maintenance free" and low maintenance starting batteries. Most internal battery explosions could have been prevented if the plates were always covered with electrolyte. Please see Section*3 for more information on preventive maintenance.

There is no question that Browns Gass is vigorously explosive, nor is there a question of wheather Lead acid batteries vent such gasses, however, I thought you said

You get rear ended, and/or there is a dead short, and/or they outgas a ton of hydrogen into the passenger compartment

with the and or's I guess you could read it either way.

My reply was specifically in reference to outgassing in the event of an accident. regarding charging that should be done with proper ventilation. I assume that your build will address this as it is specifically stated in all the lead acid battery charging information.

in an accident I would expect an extremely small amount of hydrogen to escape, resulting in a loud crack akin to a firecracker in the worst of situations. Now if you are talking about the concern over whether you took the precautions to properly build and ventilate your battery compartment then I agree. One should be sure to properly ventilate lead acid batteries.

[Gomer]

There is no question that Browns Gass is vigorously explosive, nor is there a question of wheather Lead acid batteries vent such gasses, however, I thought you said with the and or's I guess you could read it either way.

My reply was specifically in reference to outgassing in the event of an accident. regarding charging that should be done with proper ventilation. I assume that your build will address this as it is specifically stated in all the lead acid battery charging information.

in an accident I would expect an extremely small amount of hydrogen to escape, resulting in a loud crack akin to a firecracker in the worst of situations. Now if you are talking about the concern over whether you took the precautions to properly build and ventilate your battery compartment then I agree. One should be sure to properly ventilate lead acid batteries.

No, Ep... It was a general concern to illustrate the reasons EV cost as much as they do. That was what you seemed confused about. Your "I can build this in my garage for $5K" mentality.

If you throw hundreds of volts, tens of thousands of amps into the trunk cobbled together with wires, how big and hot of a fire can that start if they get shorted out in an accident? How do you secure the hundreds of pounds of batteries so they do not enter the passenger compartment in an accident?

Just as with proper ventilation, mitigating these things cost money.

[Epidemic]

Actually I don't see it costing money per say. yes someone who designs a car from the ground up can more efficiently make use of space. But does it cost more to place the batteries under the floorboard than in the bed of a truck? Not really because you make the room under the floor when designing the car. As far as fire, they seem to have problems with that so they have not succeeded in cobbling their battery packs together in a way as to keep thousands of amps from causing a fire.

I agree they can make a better product from the ground up, But the price should really not be that much higher than a standard ICE vehicle. ICE engines cost money replacing Radiator, Engine and transmission are savings that should offset some of the costs of the electric motor, controller and batteries..

Especially when you consider that you informed me that replacement batteries were not 7,000 dollars but a much much more modest number, I think in the 2,000 dollar range. electric motors are somewhere around 1,700 dollars retail. One would also have to assume that these things cost substantially less for the auto manufacturer.

The exercise of how simple it is to make an electric car is not to say you can do it better than the auto manufactures. It is just to go over the relative ease of conversion and cheapness of parts. I would think the design team at Chevy could easily fit the many formfactors of existing battery packs into their vehicle in a safer place. But I still do not see the tremendous costs.

Perhaps there is some magic alloy that they use to deal with the battery weight, but at this point I am going to continue for a while to consider it overpriced.

In the end the Chevy Volt car is an electric motor, a small gasoline engine, batteries and a frame.

in the case of the leaf it does not have the ICE so lets remove that from the price.

in the end I think the electric car is worth 5,000 to 7,000 dollars more +- in the case of the leaf 3,000 to 4000 more because they are not providing an ICE and even at that there would be profit in there.

As for R&D, I am not too sure I see a heluvalotta R&D either, They are using Lithium Ion batteries, electric motors... not a whole lot of magic new tech in there.

But If you know of some really expensive tech that was developed for these cars, specifically by the auto manufacturers that is beyond that used in the home brewed kits I would love to see it. The only real thing is a re-design of the chassis to hold it all and leave the car Practical. I do not think I could do it, nor could most people on the street but for their design team I don't think it would be that much different than your standard re-design when all is said and done.

[nickslick74]

Lead-acid batteries degrade fairly quickly when constantly drained and re-charged. Deep cycle l-a batteries are somewhat better at handling that, but they are even more expensive and only last a year or two during constant use.

LI batteries are much more capable at handling multiple discharge/recharge cycles, and in the near future look to have the ability to be charged at a much quicker rate. LA batteries have been pushed to the limit of their capabilities, which is why they aren't used in modern hybrid cars.

[sharder8]

The company reported today that it sold 7,671 Chevy Volts in 2011, fewer than the 10,000 it had expected to sell. There were more than 1,500 Volts sold in December, the best month since the car was launched in late 2010.

Sales of the Volt have been closely watched as a barometer both for uptake of electric vehicles and GM's financial health.

Buyers receive a $7,500 federal tax credit for buying an electric car with a battery as large or larger than the Chevy Volt battery. But because of the cost of large batteries, electric cars still have a significantly higher price tag than conventional cars. The Volt price starts at $39,145, the Nissan Leaf starts at about $35,000, and Ford's Focus Electric costs just under $40,000. The full $7,500 tax credit is available for each.

Electric vehicles are cheaper to fuel up but the internal combustion engine efficiency continues to improve and hybrids have become more commonplace. Unless there is a spike in the price of gasoline, many analysts expect electric vehicle sales to remain a small fraction of overall sales in the next five years because of that higher purchase price.


Related stories
Although the Volt attracts a lot of media attention, its muted sales volume is less significant to GM's overall financial picture since it represents a tiny portion of overall volume. The National Highway Safety is still investigating the cause of a Volt catching fire three weeks after a side-impact crash test.

GM said that other cars designed for better efficiency attracted buyers last year. The company highlighted a 42 percent increase in the December sales of the Chevrolet Sonic subcompact and 54 percent increase in sales of the Cruze. Overall sales were up 14 percent in calendar year 2011.

[Epidemic]

I guess there must be some reason they are so expensive otherwise one of the competitors would undercut the competition