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  1. #1
    Ultimate Member Chuckiechan's Avatar
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    Penn Judge: Muslims Allowed to Attack People for Insulting Mohammad

    Penn Judge: Muslims Allowed to Attack People for Insulting Mohammad - Yahoo! News

    I just keep reminding myself that judges are also lawyers...
    Over heard in a restaurant: "How do you want your eggs?" the waitress asked. "NFL Style. Beaten"!

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    OAP Theophylact's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuckiechan View Post
    Penn Judge: Muslims Allowed to Attack People for Insulting Mohammad - Yahoo! News

    I just keep reminding myself that judges are also lawyers...
    Well, this one is a bad lawyer who can't read the First Amendment.
    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -- Aldous Huxley

  3. #3
    Rather Large Member Beemer's Avatar
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    Upon appeal, this judge gets reprimanded or worse. What an idiot.
    “Religion: Together we can find the cure.”

  4. #4
    The Jiggawatts, Marty! tony_j15's Avatar
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    If he's electable, methinks he won't have another term.
    All 1.21 of them.

  5. #5
    Instigator Atomic Rooster's Avatar
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    This islamic "judge" forgot what country he's in. . .
    Unofficial TechIMO record holder for the number of times being added and removed from beemer's ignore list.

  6. #6
    Fact Checker Gomer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tony_j15 View Post
    If he's electable, methinks he won't have another term.
    Did you read any actual news on this case? Or did you just rely on chuck's Yahoo "commentary" that only references a blog?

  7. #7
    Tech IMO Bug Finder pickel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gomer View Post
    Did you read any actual news on this case? Or did you just rely on chuck's Yahoo "commentary" that only references a blog?
    Sure have been "Testy:" lately ????

    Here's some reading material for ya.

    http://erudition.mohit.tripod.com/_Influence_People.pdf
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOtab0BKOGY
    The Nation which forgets it's defenders will itself be forgotten
    You cannot make peace with dictators. You have to destroy them–wipe them out!

  8. #8
    Fact Checker Gomer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pickel View Post
    Sure have been "Testy:" lately ????

    Here's some reading material for ya.

    http://erudition.mohit.tripod.com/_Influence_People.pdf
    It was a straight question.

    What chuck posted might pass as "news" to him. But any time it has to make a gross misrepresentation of what the story is on its face, one should take a second look at things.

    Chuck loves him some drum beating, doesn't he.

  9. #9
    Tech IMO Bug Finder pickel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gomer View Post
    It was a straight question.

    What chuck posted might pass as "news" to him. But any time it has to make a gross misrepresentation of what the story is on its face, one should take a second look at things.

    Chuck loves him some drum beating, doesn't he.
    Chuckie needs to have his "Drum" tuned from time to time...You know...
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOtab0BKOGY
    The Nation which forgets it's defenders will itself be forgotten
    You cannot make peace with dictators. You have to destroy them–wipe them out!

  10. #10
    MR Meek and Mild Epidemic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gomer View Post
    Did you read any actual news on this case? Or did you just rely on chuck's Yahoo "commentary" that only references a blog?
    Do you have some counter information here are you just trolling?

    I assume you have a counterpoint to Chucks inflametory news source. By far his news source is superior to any you have presented.


    I do find this to be a news worthy story but thus far I have not been able to find a whole lot of press on the issue. According to all sources I can find it looks like this judge really should be reviewed by the BAR of Pensylvania. At the very least he should have recused himself.

    But of course I am all for Gomer providing more than lip service to the biased Fox news service. The transcript if true is blatantly out of order.

    Quote Originally Posted by Transcript? From National Review online
    Well, having had the benefit of having spent over two-and-a-half years in a predominantly Muslim country, I think I know a little bit about the faith of Islam. In fact, I have a copy of the Koran here, and I would challenge you, sir, to show me where it says in the Koran that Mohammed arose and walked among the dead.

    [Unintelligible.] You misinterpreted things. Before you start mocking someone else’s religion you may want to find out a little bit more about it. That makes you look like a doofus.

    And Mr. Thomas [Elbayomi's defense lawyer] is correct. In many other Muslim speaking countries – excuse me, in many Arabic speaking countries – call it “Muslim” – something like this is definitely against the law there. In their society, in fact, it could be punishable by death, and it frequently is, in their society.

    Here in our society, we have a constitution that gives us many rights, specifically, First Amendment rights. It’s unfortunate that some people use the First Amendment to deliberately provoke others. I don’t think that’s what our forefathers really intended. I think our forefathers intended that we use the First Amendment so that we can speak our mind, not to piss off other people and other cultures, which is what you did.

    I don’t think you’re aware, sir, there’s a big difference between how Americans practice Christianity – uh, I understand you’re an atheist. But, see, Islam is not just a religion, it’s their culture, their culture. It’s their very essence, their very being. They pray five times a day towards Mecca. To be a good Muslim, before you die, you have to make a pilgrimage to Mecca unless you are otherwise told you cannot because you are too ill, too elderly, whatever. But you must make the attempt.

    Their greetings, “Salaam alaikum,” “Alaikum wa-salaam,” “May God be with you.” Whenever — it is very common — their language, when they’re speaking to each other, it’s very common for them to say, uh, “Allah willing, this will happen.” It is — they are so immersed in it.

    Then what you have done is you’ve completely trashed their essence, their being. They find it very, very, very offensive. I’m a Muslim, I find it offensive. F’Im a Muslim, I’d find it offensive. [Unintelligble] aside was very offensive.

    But you have that right, but you’re way outside your bounds on First Amendment rights.

    This is what — as I said, I spent half my years altogether living in other countries. When we go to other countries, it’s not uncommon for people to refer to us as “ugly Americans.” This is why we are referred to as “ugly Americans,” because we’re so concerned about our own rights we don’t care about other people’s rights. As long as we get our say, but we don’t care about the other people’s say.

    All that aside I’ve got here basically — I don’t want to say, “He said, she said.” But I’ve got two sides of the story that are in conflict with each other. I understand — I’ve been at a Halloween parade, I understand how noisy it can be, how difficult it can be to get a [unintelligible]. I can’t believe that, if there was this kind of conflict going on in the middle of the street, that somebody didn’t step forward sooner to try and intervene — that the police officer on a bicycle didn’t stop and say, “Hey, let’s break this up.”

    [Unintelligible]. You got a witness.

    [Unintelligible response. Judge Martin then continues:]

    The preponderance of, excuse me, the burden of proof is that the defendant — it must be proven that the defendant did with the intent to harass, annoy or alarm another person — The Commonwealth, whether there was conflict or not — and, yes, he should be took [sic] putting his hands on you. I don’t know — I have your story he did and his story that he did not.

    But another part of the element [of the offense charged] is, as Mr. Thomas [the defense lawyer] said, was — “Was the defendant’s intent to harass, annoy or alarm — or was it his intent to try to have the offensive situation negated?”

    If his intent was to harass, annoy or alarm, I think there would have been a little bit more of an altercation. Something more substantial as far as testimony going on that there was a conflict. Because there is not, it is not proven to me beyond a reasonable doubt that this defendant is guilty of harassment. Therefore I am going to dismiss the charge.
    Last edited by Epidemic; February 27th, 2012 at 09:51 AM.

  11. #11
    OAP Theophylact's Avatar
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    The baseball conditional in the Zombie Mohammed case

    From Language Log:
    Last Wednesday, the judge in the "Zombie Mohammed" case dismissed a charge of harassment against Talaag Elbayomy for attacking Ernest Perce V during a Halloween parade in Mechanicsburg PA. Mr. Pence, a member of the Parading Atheists of Central PA, was costumed and labelled as "Zombie Mohammed", marching next to a "Zombie Pope" who was not attacked. There's been an extensive discussion of this case over at The Volokh Conspiracy (here, here, and here).

    Mr. Perce apparently recorded the hearing (without permission from the judge, whose name is Mark Martin) and posted it on YouTube. Eugene Volokh linked to the recording and noted:

    Commenters have queried whether the judge is actually Muslim; I think that at 31:25 in this audio he does expressly say “I’m a Muslim, I find it very offensive,” and not in a context where a “not” seems to be lost or somehow implied; but some commenters disagree, partly based on other passages in the audio — if you’re interested, check out the discussion in the comment thread. Naturally, I think the judge’s condemnation of the victim is out of place (and casts doubt on the judge’s objectivity in his decision about the defendant) whether or not the judge is a Muslim. [NOTE: The judge, in the message below, says he is not a Muslim.]

    The question at issue here is not whether the charges against Mr. Elbayomy should or should not have been dismissed, nor whether the lecture that Judge Martin directed against Mr. Pence was or was not appropriate. What I hope to explain is why, if Judge Martin is not in fact a Muslim (apparently he's a Lutheran), he seems to have said "I'm a Muslim".

    Here's the passage in question:

    They find it very, very, very offensive -

    I'm a Muslim, I find it offensive.
    Couldn't be clearer, right? The judge just said he's a Muslim. But then later he claims to be a Lutheran! What's going on?

    As it happens, we discussed this construction almost five years ago ("Baseball conditionals", 5/23/2007). Barbara Partee contributed the initial example and the analysis:

    Here's an example of the now-common way of expressing counterfactual conditionals among baseball players and managers that's so extreme I had to read it twice before catching on that it was a counterfactual; the preceding sentence and the play-by-play show that it must be, and it's grammatically consistent with other slightly less extreme examples I encounter almost daily.

    (Structure: Clause1, clause 2. — both plain indicatives. Interpretation: if clause 1 had been the case, clause 2 would have been the case.) Oh, I think what makes this one a little unusual is that the first clause is in the past tense. I think usually they're both present tense.

    "He could have been a little rusty early on, and then the inning he gave up four runs I think he kind of lost his composure a little bit," Orioles manager Sam Perlozzo said. "He just did a little damage control in that situation, we're OK." (AP Recap of Toronto 6, Baltimore 4, game of May 22, David Ginsburg, AP Sports Writer)

    In the Volokh comments section, a couple of commenters make the same point, e.g.

    I do not think the judge actually said he is a Muslim.


    Rather, he was using some kind of subjunctive “[If] I’m a Muslim, I find that offensive.” Compare the common “sports subjunctive.” E.g., “He catches that pass, Steelers win the game, Steelers go to the playoffs, I’m a Steelers fan, I’m going crazy” spoken by a sports announcer who is not a Steelers fan after the receiver dropped the pass.
    By "subjunctive", I think that the commenter really means "counterfactual".

    But maybe we should adopt the other half of his terminological suggestion (which is well established on the web) and call this the "sports conditional".
    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -- Aldous Huxley

  12. #12
    Ultimate Member Chuckiechan's Avatar
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    Bottom line; The Muslim assaulted him and the case was dismissed because apparently "that's what Muslim's do."

    Like calling a black guy the N word, or calling a white guy Whitey. Or calling asking the Coke guy for a Pepsi.

    The judge was an idiot. And as Theo's post points out, the weasel lawyers have a lot to play with. It's not about whether the judge is a Muslim or not, it's about whether making light of a Muslim's faith as a valid excuse for and excusable assault.
    Last edited by Chuckiechan; February 27th, 2012 at 10:47 AM.
    Over heard in a restaurant: "How do you want your eggs?" the waitress asked. "NFL Style. Beaten"!

  13. #13
    Fact Checker Gomer's Avatar
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    There was no assault, chuck. There was no assault charge.

    As usual, you haven't a clue what you are talking about.

  14. #14
    MR Meek and Mild Epidemic's Avatar
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    Theo,

    I think you are missing the point of this. As chuckie points out, there is no excuse for letting this guy off. The judge was wrong 100%. Whether he left the "if" off of the "I'm a muslim comment" is really irrelevant.

    hell if he was a muslim it would still be irrelevant. He is a judge in America and he is supposed to render judgments based upon American law.

  15. #15
    MR Meek and Mild Epidemic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gomer View Post
    There was no assault, chuck. There was no assault charge.

    As usual, you haven't a clue what you are talking about.
    Interesting, nuance there Gomer. Physically ripping off parts of a costume is usually considered assault. But the case was as you correctly point out Harrassment. The guy did harrass him. The judge is still wrong.

    "Stay on target"

  16. #16
    Ultimate Member Chuckiechan's Avatar
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    Obviously, a police officer felt it was or we wouldn't be in court now would we/

    And yes, ripping at a person's clothing is considered assault.
    Over heard in a restaurant: "How do you want your eggs?" the waitress asked. "NFL Style. Beaten"!

  17. #17
    OAP Theophylact's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Epidemic View Post
    Theo,

    I think you are missing the point of this. As chuckie points out, there is no excuse for letting this guy off. The judge was wrong 100%. Whether he left the "if" off of the "I'm a muslim comment" is really irrelevant.

    hell if he was a muslim it would still be irrelevant. He is a judge in America and he is supposed to render judgments based upon American law.
    If you had read what I said in my first response to Chuckiechan, you'd see that I agree with you. As an atheist and a First Amendment absolutist, I certainly feel that that I have a right to say things that will offend against religion (though personally I prefer politeness in public).

    My most recent post only addressed the question of whether the judge was a Muslim. Clearly he's not.
    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -- Aldous Huxley

  18. #18
    MR Meek and Mild Epidemic's Avatar
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    sorry theo, I did not see your opinion on the subject only the posting, I read chuckie's post and thought he was addressing your opinion that it was not a problem.

    sorry, I am usually on the other side of issues from you, I did not think it possible I could have been on the same page as you

  19. #19
    Fact Checker Gomer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuckiechan View Post
    Obviously, a police officer felt it was or we wouldn't be in court now would we/

    And yes, ripping at a person's clothing is considered assault.
    Obviously it wasn't, or they would have charged him with assault.

    Your misrepresentation of what happened doesn't change that.

    And per the trial, the harassment charge required specific intent. And that criteria was not met.

    Watch the video. I'll post it later when I'm not on mobile.

    Chuck and Co are reaching pretty hard to make this something it wasn't.

  20. #20
    Ultimate Member Chuckiechan's Avatar
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    How did he wind up in front of a judge if he wasn't charged?
    Over heard in a restaurant: "How do you want your eggs?" the waitress asked. "NFL Style. Beaten"!

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