View Poll Results: Which pistol round do you think is the better self defense/home defense round?
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February 27th, 2012, 07:02 PM #1
Which round is better - 9mm or .45?bump says:
--SNIP-- there are two schools of thought, the Marshall/Sanow/Ayoob school and the Fackler school, that espouse different properties of guns and ammunition for maximum stopping power.
The Marshall/Sanow/Ayoob school believes that velocity is the key to effective stopping power- the faster, the better, because "energy transfer" and "shock effect" are what they claim causes the most effective one-shot stops. These guys are cops and gun writers, and they've compiled a database of one-shot stops from real police shooting events, and draw conclusions from that. The 9mm Parabellum comes in very high because of the high velocities.
The Fackler school is named after Dr. Martin Fackler, a former US Army surgeon during Vietnam, and the president of the International Wound Ballistics Association (not sure if the organization still exists). Fackler and his supporters believe the opposite of Marshall, Sanow and Ayoob, namely that the most effective stopping power in handgun rounds is achieved through big, heavy bullets with a lot of momentum, because they penetrate deeper and leave a larger hole, and are correspondingly more likely to poke a hole in something vital.
As for me, I tend to believe Fackler, if only because his papers and studies are subjected to peer review, and have (from my limited perspective) a much more scientific orientation than the Marshall/Sanow/Ayoob stuff does.
Which pistol round do you think is the better self defense/home defense round?
PS - I haven't even considered which pistol to buy, I am still looking at what would be the best round to base my buy on. I have had my .357 since 1980, and while it is a good pistol, it is beginning to show its long teeth.They say technology slows down for no one. I know it outruns my wallet. I figure its because my wallet isn't light enough yet.
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February 27th, 2012, 07:16 PM #2
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Shoot a piece of meat from a realistic distance that "stopping power" would come in handy.
You'll choose the .45Main PC: AMD FX-9590 / 16gb DDR3 2400 / AMD R9 290X @ 1100 Core & 1350mhz Mem / Win7 Pro 64bit
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February 27th, 2012, 07:41 PM #3
I carry a 40 cal S & W Sigma w/ Federal Self Defense rounds.
Smith and Wesson Sigma .40 cal Combat Pistol Review - YouTube
Federal Hydra-Shock .40 Cal S&W 180 Grain Box of 20 Handgun Ammunition FE40HS1 029465088606
The Sigma is an economical weapon that is safe and dependable. Trigger pull is a bit excessive , but , in the midst of battle, when , usually, only one or two rounds are fired, you'd NEVER notice.
Just my $.02
February 27th, 2012, 07:48 PM #4
The .45 auto was developed for use in the Philippine resurrection, where drugged up natives tended to keep coming after being hit. With the .45 auto, when hit, they stayed down. One thing to realize is while the "flak" vest of VN era would allow the 9mm to go right through both sides and it would stop the .45 . . . the .45 would cave the chest of the person wearing the "flak" vest.
Long and short of it, both are good rounds and do what they're suppose to do. However, with today's defense rounds, like Golden Sabers, MagSafe, etc., the 9mm seems to be just as effective, if not more effective at stopping someone.
Good example is the 9mmMAK . . . my MagSafe's have the equivalent stopping power of the 10mm JHP, yet it is a 63gr @ 1,800fps. It's also a frangible bullet, that tends to have a shotgun effect after initial penetration. On the plus side, like the Glazer's, it has a low ricochet hazard and low over penetration co-efficient. In a home defense scenario, over penetration and ricochet is not a good thing for those sleeping in other rooms or your neighbors.
For self defense, I tend to carry my 9's more than my .45, for the above reasons.
February 27th, 2012, 08:02 PM #5
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- Sheridan Texas
Of the 2 I prefer the .45 ACP. I've used it to drop numerous wild pigs at 40 yds with one shot from a SIG 1911. If I were to carry the 9mm I'd use 147gr rds in my Springfield EMP. The only time I shoot .40 S&W is in my sub2000, I don't like it as a pistol round, just my preference.
As long as you practice shot placement, I don't think you can go wrong with either.
Not much help from me!
February 27th, 2012, 08:06 PM #6
Federal Hydra-Shock - PoliceLink
I went to an autopsy on a suspect killed by the officer. Officer fired 3 rounds, 1 chest, 1 arm 1 miss. The pos was running toward him with a knife.
The chest shot was an X through the sternum and the post was pushing against the skin after it went through the spine. An awesome round. This one was a .40
February 27th, 2012, 08:45 PM #7
44 magnum. 500 s&w some nice
Hollow point bullets to help deposit more energy.
February 27th, 2012, 09:00 PM #8
Although what is wrong with 9mm and 30 round mag fired at 3 rnds per second might be better than 7 45 rounds
February 27th, 2012, 10:11 PM #9
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- Sheridan Texas
500 S&W, if you can't get back on target in an SD situation you might wind up dead.
I wouldn't waste my time with a 30 rd mag. To many chances for failure IMO, at least that has been my experience with hi-cap mags like that in a pistol. Stick with the factory standard for whichever you purchase for SD.
44 mag, I know I can back on target quickly, but a Ruger Super Redhawk is large and heavy. No other experience with 44 mag.
STI makes double stack 2011's in .45 acp. Don't know what your budget is, retail is kinda pricey for some folks. The Tactical 5.0 looks sweet! I don't have any experience with 2011's. I do have a few single stack 1911's though.
The STI Tactical 5.0 « STI INTERNATIONAL
Might just get yourself a G21 that's 13+1.
February 27th, 2012, 11:11 PM #10
Frankly there may well be some failure rate with 30 rnd . But my glock 33 rnd mag has never failed.
Well over 500 rounds through that mag 0 malfunctions.
500 s&w. I have only fired 3 rounds of that one but I was impressed with how controllable the porting left that one.
It was kinda tame compared to my ruger super blackhawk 44 mag.
Fire de 500 once and your opponent is running or dead.
February 28th, 2012, 12:00 AM #11
What you kiddies need to look at, is the incapacitation times for the different calibers and rounds from the Strassbourg Test. You can read it HERE!
Pickel, those .40 Hydra-Shoks you're so proud of, scored an Average Incapacitation Time of 8.32 sec..
My 9x18MAK MagSafes scored an Average Incapacitation Time of 4.74 sec.
The point of the Strassbourg tests, was you didn't have to be an expert shot, but rather the amount of time it took to incapacitate the bad guy, when you hit him in a non-vital area. While I have no problem with shot placement, the key is to stop the person, for the average shooter. (That's most of ya'! ) That being the case, bigger, heavier, with more penetration is not the answer. The round that has the shortest incapacitation time, gives you the best safety factor.
February 28th, 2012, 12:15 AM #12
You also have to take into account the recovery time. The longer it takes for you to bring the gun back on target for a second shot, can mean the difference between life and death. Fact is, a .22 has the best recovery time . . . unfortunately, it also has the poorest stopping power. The .44 Mag and .50 AE have some of the better stopping power . . . but they also have some of the poorest recovery times. What you may want to consider, based on the 2 above statements, is that something in-between will give you the best of both worlds. Based on that, the 9mm scores pretty well on both stopping power and recovery time.
Next consideration goes to the type of bullet. A ball round has greater penetration, but it just makes a nice, clean, small hole and doesn't score well at incapacitation. Soft points and wad cutters tend to make a nice, nasty, larger hole, but again, they don't score well at incapacitation. Hollow points tend to do a nice big, nasty hole and score well on incapacitation . . . and score well on incapacitation, making them a good choice. But, the best choice for incapacitation time, the frangible bullet, which just plain makes a mess after initial penetration and because of the speed and shock of the bullet hitting and penetrating, has the shortest incapacitation times.
February 28th, 2012, 02:00 AM #13
I have some .45 cal Critical Defense rounds by Hornady. In addition to a specially designed bullet, the propellant is "low flash" so as to not blind you at night. They are 1000 fps @ 411 ft. lbs. so they should spin a victim pretty good negating any chance of return fire.
One of my sons is a prison guard. It seems the con's are always showing off bullet holes and bragging about being shot. He says he's never met a con who was shot by a .45 and lived to brag about it.
Mine .45 is a government issue I got over in 'Nam.
And I have a 20 gauge pump with #2's. Yeah, not buck, but I had some laying around.
Last edited by Chuckiechan; February 28th, 2012 at 02:05 AM.Bumper Sticker in San Jose, CA: "Dear God, Send Us One More Tech Boom. I Promise Not to Piss it All Away!"
February 28th, 2012, 02:32 AM #14
February 28th, 2012, 07:56 AM #15
February 28th, 2012, 09:37 AM #16
Where are the statistics on people who return fire after a 50 S&W is fired in their general direction.
You know that they are going to turn tail and run. Which is good because you will be blinded by the rising sun that forms over the barrel for a milli second.
I was stunned the first time I fired the 500 S&W the muzzle flash from those generous ports filled a good portion of my visual field. If memory serves it was like a pie plate at arms length.
The other thing that was cool about the range I was at was by my second shot the 10 or 15 lanes that were shooting went quiet and there were people looking around for the guy detonating hand grenades
February 28th, 2012, 12:06 PM #17Bumper Sticker in San Jose, CA: "Dear God, Send Us One More Tech Boom. I Promise Not to Piss it All Away!"
February 28th, 2012, 01:39 PM #18
1st -- pickel, your sometimers is showing . . . recovery time relates to YOUR recovery, after firing a shot and being able to bring your weapon to bear, back on your target for a second or additional shots. The recoil and muzzle flash can delay your recovery time and result in you not only being in-able to fire a second shot, but your death.
2nd -- Epi, read my comment to pickel . . . that muzzle flash temp. blinding you is not a good thing. If you miss with the first shot and he doesn't turn and run, like you're hoping . . . will you be able to recover and fire a second shot?
3rd -- I know it's the wrong bullet Chuckie . . . but they only tested certain rounds. While the bullet weight is the same, the design is different AND it has a lower velocity than the XTP. The main findings of Strassbourg test showed that the slower the bullet, the longer the Average Incapacitation Time. That said, the results of the Critical Defense round would perform at a longer AIT than the XPT round. In other words Chuckie, poorer choice for self defense IAW the Strassbourg test.
February 28th, 2012, 02:01 PM #19
I am just kidding (I understand what you are saying.
personally I think the fast recovery and massive capacity of the 9 mm probably would make that my round of choice.
A double stack 45 is out of the question for me. the hand grip would be too big.
But I really like the safety setup on a 1911 combined with the look and feel.
In the end you can quibble over what bullet will do in a pinch but in the end you are infinitely safer with a .22 than with nothing. More often than not your target will not want to be shot even with a lowly 22. I am not sure it is even statistically significant how many people will keep fighting after being hit by a 22. Plus you can pump 5 more rounds in for stopping power with the gun never going off target.
I do not recommend the .22 or the 88 magnum used in Johnny Dangerously. you can pick your round by ballistics testing and you will be right. But in the end it really seems the main choice is being armed if one wants to stop an assailant.
If you want to stretch those odds from 1 in a million to .1 in a million then choose the 45 but I think it is really irrelevant to your risk of death when you compare it to riding your bike of 99% of the population.
February 28th, 2012, 05:13 PM #20
Long and short of it Epi, is . . . If you end up in a life and death, self defense situation, what is going to stop the attacker the fastest, if you don't hit him in a vital spot? Would it not behoove a person to do a little research and find the best choice for their needs?
Something to think about . . . while it deals with a Grizzly, it's also been known to happen with humans, especially one on drugs. While in AK, a surveyor was attacked by a Grizz. Her team shot the Grizz several times to drive it off and take her to the hospital. Once she was being cared for, they went back to look for the Grizz. They found it over 250yds away, dead. When they went to dress it out, they discovered the heart blown apart. That bear traveled over 250yds, with a blown apart heart.
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