How to NOT Fight a "War"

[tony_j15]

Example 9,873,245,850: The US's drone campaign in Yemen.

Across the vast, rugged terrain of southern Yemen, an escalating campaign of U.S. drone strikes is stirring increasing sympathy for al-Qaeda-linked militants and driving tribesmen to join a network linked to terrorist plots against the United States.

After recent U.S. missile strikes, mostly from unmanned aircraft, the Yemeni government and the United States have reported that the attacks killed only suspected al-Qaeda members. But civilians have also died in the attacks, said tribal leaders, victims’ relatives and human rights activists.

“These attacks are making people say, ‘We believe now that al-Qaeda is on the right side,’ ” said businessman Salim al-Barakani, adding that his two brothers — one a teacher, the other a cellphone repairman — were killed in a U.S. strike in March.

The Washington Post.

[Theophylact]

Plays well in the US. Who cares how it looks to the rest of the world?

[Epidemic]

Osama seemed to think it was a pretty effective method of messing up their operations.

[The Real Bingo]

Fly drones, people bitch. Deploy troops, people bitch. Fire missiles, people bitch. There is no good way to fight a war with an oversensitive citizenry.

[Chuckiechan]

They turned our civilian aircraft into drones... turnabout is fair play!

[pickel]

Smoke 'em before they smoke YOU !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

EDIT:

Today, the area is a haven for militants, said Abdelaziz Muhammed Hamza, head of the Revolutionary Council in Abyan province, a group that is fighting AQAP. “All the residents of the area have joined al-Qaeda,” he said.

Now, that we know where they are..............................

[tony_j15]

Fly drones, people bitch. Deploy troops, people bitch. Fire missiles, people bitch. There is no good way to fight a war with an oversensitive citizenry.

It's "oversensitive" to think killing people (including innocents) in a country we're not at war with is a bad thing? Have you thought this through at all?

They turned our civilian aircraft into drones... turnabout is fair play!

And those people are all dead or captured. Got a better reason that isn't predicated upon a childish shoving match mentality?

Smoke 'em before they smoke YOU !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dumb idea. The article shows why.

Today, the area is a haven for militants, said Abdelaziz Muhammed Hamza, head of the Revolutionary Council in Abyan province, a group that is fighting AQAP. “All the residents of the area have joined al-Qaeda,” he said.

Now, that we know where they are..............................

The area is a "haven" now in part because of our drone assassinations. Get it? We are creating the problem.
What you are doing is sticking your hand in the beehive, getting stung, then blaming the bees.

[sharder8]

Flippin' bleeding heart liberal arm chair generals have spoken!

Answer me this general tony . . . when the enemy hides out in neighboring country's to re-build/re-arm, rest, recuperate, re-finance, plan, etc. . . . what do you suggest? We leave them be, so they can kill more of us? Come on genius, what's the answer?

Seems you'd rather see more American soldiers killed an don't give a crap about the civilians the opposing forces put in danger or kill as well. You bleeding heart liberals fall for this propaganda crap and tie our military's hands, then cry about our casualties.

Tony, you're a flippin' pawn of the terrorists and the cause of many casualties for it . . . including your fellow Americans!

Why don't you join the Army and find out what pain and death you idiots cause and support?


Harder

[Epidemic]

The area is a "haven" now in part because of our drone assassinations. Get it? We are creating the problem.
What you are doing is sticking your hand in the beehive, getting stung, then blaming the bees.

If there is a bee hive in the woods you should probably leave it alone. But if that behive has some mutant bees that come to your house and sting people you might want to track it's whereabouts down and destroy the nest.

As you destroy the nest you may get stung but hopefully you can do it so completely as to keep future incursions into your territory.

of course if you do a bad job and scatter the nest you might be in trouble.


It is a balancing act...between creating new recruits and eliminating the threat. I don't know where the proper balance is.

[nickslick74]

Flippin' bleeding heart liberal arm chair generals have spoken!

Answer me this general tony . . . when the enemy hides out in neighboring country's to re-build/re-arm, rest, recuperate, re-finance, plan, etc. . . . what do you suggest? We leave them be, so they can kill more of us? Come on genius, what's the answer?

Seems you'd rather see more American soldiers killed an don't give a crap about the civilians the opposing forces put in danger or kill as well. You bleeding heart liberals fall for this propaganda crap and tie our military's hands, then cry about our casualties.

Tony, you're a flippin' pawn of the terrorists and the cause of many casualties for it . . . including your fellow Americans!

Why don't you join the Army and find out what pain and death you idiots cause and support?


Harder

So you advocate killing civilians. Duly noted.

[sharder8]

So you advocate killing civilians. Duly noted.

I DO NOT advocate killing civilians . . .

But, I do realize and understand that civilians may be maimed or killed when the enemy uses them as human shields. Do you realize and understand that Nick?


Harder

[brandon184]

There is no good way to fight a war with an oversensitive citizenry.

Aren't Americans really the "oversensitive citizenry" in this scenario? How many years and how many trillions of dollars do you have to spend in the Middle East to realize that?

[Mikev2.0]

I DO NOT advocate killing civilians . . .

But, I do realize and understand that civilians may be maimed or killed when the enemy uses them as human shields. Do you realize and understand that Nick?

Seems a lot easier to condone when civilian deaths are caused thousands of miles away from the United States, in a country we're not even at war with in the first place.

[sharder8]

Seems a lot easier to condone when civilian deaths are caused thousands of miles away from the United States, in a country we're not even at war with in the first place.

It may seem that way Mike . . . but, it shouldn't. It's a sad thing when enemy troops think it's a good tactic to hide behind civilians. They should be condemned by the world for this tactic and it IS AGAINST both the GC and LLW to do so. Even sadder, is people that condone this tactic, yet condemn us for attacking these people who are also known to kill, maim, and torture the same civilians they use as shields.


Harder

[sharder8]

Aren't Americans really the "oversensitive citizenry" in this scenario? How many years and how many trillions of dollars do you have to spend in the Middle East to realize that?

Good question brandon . . .

How many trillions of dollars do you have to spend fighting terrorism, that has no country, has no rules of engagement agreements, has no uniform, places no value on human life, to understand that these guys need to be eliminated?

How many good people (soldiers and civilians) have to die to eliminate these same terrorists to prevent even more senseless deaths?

I don't know of even one combat Vet that likes war and killing. It is/was a job they do/did that they regret and have to live with and deal with, the rest of their lives.


Harder

[brandon184]

Good question brandon . . .

How many trillions of dollars do you have to spend fighting terrorism, that has no country, has no rules of engagement agreements, has no uniform, places no value on human life, to understand that these guys need to be eliminated?

How many good people (soldiers and civilians) have to die to eliminate these same terrorists to prevent even more senseless deaths?

I don't know of even one combat Vet that likes war and killing. It is/was a job they do/did that they regret and have to live with and deal with, the rest of their lives.

There is not enough wealth in the world to eliminate every single individual on the planet who may harbour ill will toward the United States or may be a part of or sympathize with terrorist groups.

Doesn't it seem silly to you to spend those trillions abroad on a threat that will never be truly eliminated, instead of using the money at home to be vigilant against whatever threats come, not to mention domestic concerns like infrastructure, healthcare, education, caring for veterans, etc? Or not spending it at all?

[pickel]

T

Doesn't it seem silly to you to spend those trillions abroad ?

Not to the Military Industrial Complex !!!!!!!

Oil. Gas, Ammo, Uniforms , Boots, Bombs, Aircraft, etc.

Kick backs to those who Legislate and write the checks.

To ALL my "Good Buddies" up on the Hill....


Positively 4th Street (Post Production) - YouTube

[The Real Bingo]

The war is flawed from the get go. We're trying to "win hearts and minds" while we're blowing up stuff. Doesn't make sense to me. But hey, I don't get paid the big bucks to think up this genius stuff.

[tony_j15]

Flippin' bleeding heart liberal arm chair generals have spoken!

Yes, I've never served so my opinion must be invalid. Are you interested in actually discussing, or just dissing?

Answer me this general tony . . . when the enemy hides out in neighboring country's to re-build/re-arm, rest, recuperate, re-finance, plan, etc. . . . what do you suggest? We leave them be, so they can kill more of us? Come on genius, what's the answer?

Again with the dissing? Really, you're acting rather pathetic.
The rebuild/arm/finance problems are best dealt with using financial weapons. They can do nothing without money. Squeezing off monetary systems is easier and cheaper than active hunting/targeting, and the collateral is always zero. The same can't be said of drone warfare.

Seems you'd rather see more American soldiers killed an don't give a crap about the civilians the opposing forces put in danger or kill as well. You bleeding heart liberals fall for this propaganda crap and tie our military's hands, then cry about our casualties.

We're discussing Yemen. We have no armed presence there. Mind explaining how your position applies to this situation?

Tony, you're a flippin' pawn of the terrorists and the cause of many casualties for it . . . including your fellow Americans!

If I'm a "terrorist pawn" then that would make you a brainless killing machine of the military-industrial complex who thinks the only solution is the death of all enemies and to hell with figuring out the how's and why's as to what causes people to become out enemies in the first place.
I don't believe either label is accurate. What I do see is someone who is quite agitated about the WoT in general and possibly feels his own service is being called into question. That is not the case. I'm merely sharing information that leads towards a conclusion: that our actions in Yemen have not been thought through carefully and are doing more harm than good. If you have something to share about that, please do.

Why don't you join the Army and find out what pain and death you idiots cause and support?

Towards what end? It's stupid to think one has to "be there" to understand the end result. The Rand Corporation and Vietnam already proved that.

It is a balancing act...between creating new recruits and eliminating the threat. I don't know where the proper balance is.

I'm not saying I know where the right balance is either. But based on the information coming from Yemen, the balance is clearly misaligned in this instance.

I DO NOT advocate killing civilians . . .

But, I do realize and understand that civilians may be maimed or killed when the enemy uses them as human shields.

Again, the topic is Yemen. We're not dealing to a large extent with civilians being pulled in front of AKs and used as personal shields. We are dealing with an American military that is using drones and missiles to kill targets without high regard to who they are with at the time. It has resulted in civilian deaths, and that blood is completely on US hands.

It's a sad thing when enemy troops think it's a good tactic to hide behind civilians. They should be condemned by the world for this tactic and it IS AGAINST both the GC and LLW to do so. Even sadder, is people that condone this tactic, yet condemn us for attacking these people who are also known to kill, maim, and torture the same civilians they use as shields.

Harder, we are discussing Yemen. Not Iraq. Not Afghanistan. We are not at war in Yemen. Unless you have proof that all the supposed Qaeda targets actively knew they were being hunted by drones, you cannot state that they are using human shields.

The war is flawed from the get go. We're trying to "win hearts and minds" while we're blowing up stuff. Doesn't make sense to me.

I agree with the flaws, as they apply to Afghanistan and Iraq. But here, we are discussing Yemen, which is a sovereign state that (supposedly) we do not exercise direct control over. So the "hearts and minds" operation isn't even at play here. We're just blowing things up. It's a complete recipe for disaster.

[sharder8]

Yes, I've never served so my opinion must be invalid. Are you interested in actually discussing, or just dissing?

What's the matter, you don't like having the fallacies of your thinking pointed out? Yes Tony, since you haven't served, you don't have the knowledge and experience to understand the full picture. Sorry tony, but you are incapable of discussing this in an intelligent manner, as you only see the one side . . . the propaganda of the liberal left.

Again with the dissing? Really, you're acting rather pathetic.
The rebuild/arm/finance problems are best dealt with using financial weapons. They can do nothing without money. Squeezing off monetary systems is easier and cheaper than active hunting/targeting, and the collateral is always zero. The same can't be said of drone warfare.

Your lack of understanding, knowledge, and experience shines bright again tony. Do a little research and you'll find that "squeezing off" monetary systems isn't so easy, nor is it all that effective, when it comes to some countries.

We're discussing Yemen. We have no armed presence there. Mind explaining how your position applies to this situation?

This is part of the war on terrorism! These terrorists that you are crying for, have no country. The country of Yemen, in this case, also recognizes them as terrorists and un-welcome in their country.

If I'm a "terrorist pawn" then that would make you a brainless killing machine of the military-industrial complex who thinks the only solution is the death of all enemies and to hell with figuring out the how's and why's as to what causes people to become out enemies in the first place.
I don't believe either label is accurate. What I do see is someone who is quite agitated about the WoT in general and possibly feels his own service is being called into question. That is not the case. I'm merely sharing information that leads towards a conclusion: that our actions in Yemen have not been thought through carefully and are doing more harm than good. If you have something to share about that, please do.

First of all tony, the thoughts, are the thoughts of the person who wrote the article. You may agree with them, but re-read my earlier posts and think about it from a tactical point of view. Yes, there are 2 sides to the discussion, but I haven't seen you propose a better, workable solution. (I'll give you a hint . . . there isn't one.)

Towards what end? It's stupid to think one has to "be there" to understand the end result. The Rand Corporation and Vietnam already proved that.

Obviously not, as you fell into the thoughts of the propagandist and seem to be incapable of understanding the tactical side of the discussion. You seem to be continuing with your thinking that this is wrong and there is no other side to the discussion.

I'm not saying I know where the right balance is either. But based on the information coming from Yemen, the balance is clearly misaligned in this instance.

Is it misaligned? At what human cost to innocents and NATO lives, due to the terrorists organizations, does it become misaligned? At what point do people get it, that you want to be or support terrorists, you forfeit your life?

Again, the topic is Yemen. We're not dealing to a large extent with civilians being pulled in front of AKs and used as personal shields. We are dealing with an American military that is using drones and missiles to kill targets without high regard to who they are with at the time. It has resulted in civilian deaths, and that blood is completely on US hands.

That's funny tony, do you really believe that the terrorist organizations in Yemen are not using the tactics of their brothers, in hopes of not getting killed? Maybe it's time to think about it and read papers/news from sources that are about truthful reporting and not furthering the agenda against the U.S. and its military.

Harder, we are discussing Yemen. Not Iraq. Not Afghanistan. We are not at war in Yemen. Unless you have proof that all the supposed Qaeda targets actively knew they were being hunted by drones, you cannot state that they are using human shields.

If you believe that they aren't using the same tactics, as their fellow terrorists in Afghanistan or Iraq . . . I've got a bridge to sell you in New York, it's a bit old, but still functional.

I agree with the flaws, as they apply to Afghanistan and Iraq. But here, we are discussing Yemen, which is a sovereign state that (supposedly) we do not exercise direct control over. So the "hearts and minds" operation isn't even at play here. We're just blowing things up. It's a complete recipe for disaster.

Please note that the war on terrorism is not bound by countries borders. Also, please note that the government of Yemen asked for the help from President Obama and there is an MOA on what help will be provided.


Harder