Another Byproduct of The War on Drugs.

**Epidemic** · June 4th, 2012, 03:12 PM

Ok so we know that keeping drugs illegal has many negative side effects/ unintended consequences.

1) Elevated theft to pay for artificial price caused by illegality
2) Corruption caused by huge money associated with illegality
3) Over flowing justice system
4) Increased police presence to fight drugs.
...

Now there is a new one I never thought of. In an attempt to get high people are choosing even more dangerous alternatives to the natural drugs to try and skirt the law.

Bath Salts (cocain substitute) horrible side effects most recently like zombies eating peoples faces.
Tango and Cash (Heroin substitute) Ahh only killed a few dozen

Just legalize drugs, put controls on quality purity standards, label the products with known side effects and safety instructions

1) remove need to make fake drugs to skirt the law
2) Decreases Crime
....a) drugs are now cheap and do not require large thefts to support habbit.
....b) no crime syndicates built on drug money
....c) no longer a source or revenue for drug lords to oppress people in distand lands
....d) no longer support terrorism.
3) Decreased prison load
4) Decrease in criminal records destroying lives.
5) Decreased corruption both home and abroad
6)...

I recommend that Users be licensed in the use of their poison and laws regarding supplying them to minors.

I recommend that business set up more reasonable rules regarding some drugs. Simply smoking pot like alcohol leave you impaired but. With alcohol you can still work after a few hours. I would think the same would apply to most drugs. So employee rules should not be based on zero tolerance but rather the science of the effects of drugs over a given period.

Personally I do not know the amount of time that one should be off of heroin before they return to a normal state capable of operating heavy machinery or cars but I assume it is not forever.

I am all for criminalization of impaired driving laws. Just as drinking and driving should be punished. Any drug that impairs your ability to safely operate a vehicle needs to be punished.

**tony_j15** · June 4th, 2012, 05:03 PM

I say we watch Portugal for a decade or two before we start decriminalizing the hard stuff.

But there's truth to what you say. Some drugs, marijuana especially, need to be legalized. We have way too many young men who are being incarcerated and having their lives ruined because of a naturally occuring product that is less harmful than cigarettes.

Dan Okrent had an article in the Times today about how when Prohibition was over, less people drank because of regulations compared to during the prohibition when illegality meant anyone could get their hands on alcohol regardless of age or other considerations. Carrying this forward to drugs, a combination of regulations and taxes would make them available and possibly even decrease the number of people who use them, while ensuring the products are pure and contaminant free (meaning fewer hospitalizations from ODs or poisonings).

**pickel** · June 4th, 2012, 07:44 PM

I'd like to see a "Grow your Own" segment.

Since it's legal to brew your own beer ( my Daughter got me a beer brewing "Kit" for Christmas), why not be able to grow your own drugs ??? Many "Legal" herbs can get you off and there's no enforcement there.

The sale of "Grow Lamps" would BOOM !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

**The Real Bingo** · June 4th, 2012, 09:40 PM

I am rather dubious to the prospect of our government legalizing drugs. While there may be tax money in it for them, and a possible drug lobby, there is more money and power in perpetuating the prison industrial complex and keeping hoards of cops, lawyers, clerks, administrators, parole officers, etc. employed. It's jobs program. It was never to "protect" us.

**Epidemic** · June 5th, 2012, 08:57 AM

I don't know if it was a power grab for LE and legal system. I think most people wanted it with the best of intentions. It just does not work.

You can not legislate away perceived needs. Drug users feel it is an absolute need. Therefore there is no way to stop people. All you can do is raise the price by increasing risk of trading in the drugs. Raised price makes criminals have to steal to acquire, dealers kill to protect themselves.

I don't even want to see a heavy tax on it. Normal 10% 20%+-. We want the price to fall to produce levels to eliminate crime and black market.

**tony_j15** · June 5th, 2012, 01:04 PM

My main reason to tax is to cover the health care and law enforcement needs associated with the usage. As you say, Epi, we shouldn't tax the bejeesus out of it or the price will go higher than black market amounts and we restart the problem.

When we are talking about legalization, are we meaning use or production as well? Would cooking meth at home still be illegal? My vote is yes.

**The Real Bingo** · June 5th, 2012, 09:00 PM

Cooking meth at home would be like making your own beer. Drink it all you want; but when you try to sell it is when you are breaking the law.

**Epidemic** · June 5th, 2012, 09:11 PM

Originally Posted by The Real Bingo

Cooking meth at home would be like making your own beer. Drink it all you want; but when you try to sell it is when you are breaking the law.

I think home brewed method would be rare as long as you keep taxes reasonable. I doubt it would statistically be significant.

**tony_j15** · June 5th, 2012, 11:04 PM

Perhaps. I would still leave it outlawed. The danger (especially with meth) of an explosion or death, fires, poisonings, etc is too great to allow people to cook it. People have burned themselves and their kids, or left their kids locked in rooms to starve while they cook up a batch of meth.
If you want to purchase it, so be it. But that should not (IMO) relieve you of the responsibility of being a decent parent or a law-abiding citizen. People high on hard drugs will likely have issues doing so. The good news would be, if they purchased the drugs via a legit system they would be on record, making it easier for cops and family services to check up on them.

**Epidemic** · June 6th, 2012, 07:33 AM

Originally Posted by tony_j15

Perhaps. I would still leave it outlawed. The danger (especially with meth) of an explosion or death, fires, poisonings, etc is too great to allow people to cook it. People have burned themselves and their kids, or left their kids locked in rooms to starve while they cook up a batch of meth.
If you want to purchase it, so be it. But that should not (IMO) relieve you of the responsibility of being a decent parent or a law-abiding citizen. People high on hard drugs will likely have issues doing so. The good news would be, if they purchased the drugs via a legit system they would be on record, making it easier for cops and family services to check up on them.

I really could care less if it is not statistically significant . Effectively what you have with a law like this would be the banning of home made chain saws. Yes they are dangerous but the ones you buy are cheaper and better so no one is gonna bother making it at home as long as there is no incentive to do so.

but banning it really harms little as well. I just error on the side of less laws. I never thought of the family services aspect. I like that.

**brandon184** · June 6th, 2012, 08:06 PM

I would think that legalization of drugs would be huge among the so-called austerity advocates. It costs taxpayers, on average, $25,000 per year to incarcerate an individual. And that doesn't include indirect costs, like giving a person a criminal record, making them practically unemployable and making it much harder for them to be contributing members of society who take care of themselves and pay taxes.

While most discussion around legalization is centered around marijuana, I say legalize and tax it all. People refer to the "hard stuff", well, we already have a lot of hard stuff and we keep it behind pharmacy counters. Manage it all as a public health issue out in the open instead of treating people in emergency rooms at much higher costs to everyone!

**Theophylact** · June 7th, 2012, 08:19 AM

The US has the highest incarceration rate in the world.

**Epidemic** · June 7th, 2012, 04:36 PM

Originally Posted by brandon184

I would think that legalization of drugs would be huge among the so-called austerity advocates. It costs taxpayers, on average, $25,000 per year to incarcerate an individual. And that doesn't include indirect costs, like giving a person a criminal record, making them practically unemployable and making it much harder for them to be contributing members of society who take care of themselves and pay taxes.

While most discussion around legalization is centered around marijuana, I say legalize and tax it all. People refer to the "hard stuff", well, we already have a lot of hard stuff and we keep it behind pharmacy counters. Manage it all as a public health issue out in the open instead of treating people in emergency rooms at much higher costs to everyone!

the only controlled substances i would have would be antibiotics, and the likes. There is a real public interest in keeping antibiotics controlled.

**tony_j15** · June 8th, 2012, 10:43 AM

But not in keeping people from cooking meth at home?

**Epidemic** · June 8th, 2012, 11:08 AM

I am not sure which post you are referring to but... Cooking meth at home would seem like alot of work cost and risk that no one would take on were it legal. You could buy the store brand crystal meth or just speed probably for half the price of doing it at home.

it is not a great example but : how many people do you know who cook their own penicillin at home. There is an easy way to buy it so there is not need to do it at home. It may not be dangerous to make penicillin at home but there is simply no need to do it with a cheap readily source.

Do we have laws on the books that keep us from brewing our own penicillin? Even if there are such laws I would wager that in the past 50 years you would be hard pressed to find a home brewer who was jailed for it.

I am just not convinced that there would be enough people trying to brew meth if it were legal. Take the profit out of it and it simply would not happen.

In fact designer drugs would all but disappear from the industry unless they were amazingly better than the drugs people are trying to match through chemistry.

isn't crystal meth the same as concentrated speed. If speed were legal would you even need crystal meth?

**brandon184** · June 8th, 2012, 02:02 PM

Do people even "cook meth" in their homes exclusively for their own personal consumption? I would have assumed it is something that only occurs to produce quantities large enough to resell to dealers/distributors who would be crippled anyway under legalization. I would also assume, based purely on what Hollywood has told me, that it's a complicated, involved process.

I think that one substantial health problem that would also be solved by legalization is that people would no longer be buying street drugs that include adulterants that have been added in to lower costs for whomever is manufacturing the drug. There were news stories in Canada last year of people dying from taking ecstasy. Of course, it wasn't the ecstasy that was killing them, but rather another chemical that was being added to the drug by the manufacturer to increase volume of product while lowering costs.

**Epidemic** · June 8th, 2012, 02:09 PM

Originally Posted by brandon184

There were news stories in Canada last year of people dying from taking ecstasy. Of course, it wasn't the ecstasy that was killing them, but rather another chemical that was being added to the drug by the manufacturer to increase volume of product while lowering costs.

So again the law is indirectly the cause of the deaths.

**pickel** · June 9th, 2012, 07:58 AM

Originally Posted by brandon184

I think that one substantial health problem that would also be solved by legalization is that people would no longer be buying street drugs that include adulterants that have been added in to lower costs for whomever is manufacturing the drug. There were news stories in Canada last year of people dying from taking ecstasy. Of course, it wasn't the ecstasy that was killing them, but rather another chemical that was being added to the drug by the manufacturer to increase volume of product while lowering costs.

With all the publicity about drugs, especially in our educational system, let people do what they want. Irresponsibly to ones body and mind is the price they pay.
Reduce the excess population.
If society was serious about it's citizens, not only illegal drugs would be regulated but alcohol , cigarettes and other substances that cause far greater harm and deaths would be removed from the shelves of the market place.
It's all a cop out because Big Business and those who support it do not really give a fuck but about one thing. The profit margin.

**tony_j15** · June 9th, 2012, 10:35 AM

Originally Posted by Epidemic

I am not sure which post you are referring to but... Cooking meth at home would seem like alot of work cost and risk that no one would take on were it legal. You could buy the store brand crystal meth or just speed probably for half the price of doing it at home.

Yes, you're right. Sorry, was having trouble getting my brain to follow that train of thought. Got it now.

Originally Posted by brandon184

Do people even "cook meth" in their homes exclusively for their own personal consumption? I would have assumed it is something that only occurs to produce quantities large enough to resell to dealers/distributors who would be crippled anyway under legalization. I would also assume, based purely on what Hollywood has told me, that it's a complicated, involved process.

It is complicated and involved, but I've seen people who you would assume are idiots figure it out. In my area (SW MO) there are a huge number of meth lab busts. IIRC, we were number one in the nation at one point (one of those "we're number 1!" stats that the local realtors like to leave off). A lot of the small home labs operate just to keep the cook happy. If there is anything left over, that gets sold to make enough money to afford the next batch.
Our local media runs stories every year about busts that turn into standoffs, fires caused by chemicals, and children beaten or near starvation from neglect. I would love to see these products only manufactured in an industrial setting.

Another issue that comes up with drugs: money. There is a ton of petty crime (low level robberies, theft, etc) that happens because addicts need cash to get their high on. Will legalization help the crime rate go down? I would assume it could help, because if products are cheaper people wouldn't have to steal as much. Alternatively, would greater availability and lower prices cause demand to increase, leading to additional crime?