Obama to create "Dream Act";

[tony_j15]

These people come here and SQUAT. That's all they are SQUATTERS. Now ,in hard times, with some many of our people out of work, Veterans who are half a man, high school and college kids needing work, Obombma comes out with this insulting gesture to those who need it the most.... OUR Men , Women and children.

So they are all squatters? None of them have jobs? None of them do anything good? The children don't go to school, speak English, and pledge allegiance to our flag? They aren't in college? They aren't in our military, dieing for our country and trying to protect our rights? They don't pay taxes, including social security?

Have you given any thought to what you are saying? Because what I am hearing is the anger of an irrational man.

Civil disobedience is not the answer tony!

Worked during the civil rights movement, didn't it? It worked during the build-up to the Civil War, didn't it? It worked during World War 2 didn't it?

You're right, there is no use in me arguing law with a criminal.

Again, your black and white viewpoint here ignores reality. You are refusing to think this situation or any prior situation through critically.

Why don't you do a little research to learn why man created and creates law?

IMO, laws are about our fallible attempts to create a just and ethical society that treats people more or less fairly.

No where does it say you can pick and chose what laws you want to follow and that you won't be punished for not following those you don't agree with.

And nowhere did I say you won't get punished for disobeying a law. But justice goes deeper than that. People who helped blacks escape before the Civil War were thrown in jail. People who helped Jews escape during World War 2 could be shot. A woman in Alabama was arrested simply for sitting on a bus. All these people throughout history were punished for breaking the law. But why did they do so? Because they knew the laws were not just, were not fair, and were morally or ethically wrong.

That is what you need to get through your skull.

That's congress's job.

No, it's our job. Don't pass the buck.

And that just illustrates this isn't about the kiddies or anything like that...it's a way to pander and get votes and to turn these illegal Mexicans into the next group of oppressed blacks

They aren't all Mexican. Only about 60% have come from Mexico.

The point of this is border enforcement helps poor legal immigrants and blacks.

WTF? So blacks are primarily poor and incapable of getting jobs unless we get rid of the "illegal problem"?

Just how racist are you?

Something tony and brandon are too young to remember and understand.

Remembering and understanding are two separate things.

[pickel]

The writing says they have to be able to _prove_ their claim. They can't just show up and say "hey, sign me up."

High school kids do not lament without hope. And if they do, it's not because of a handful of immigrants who are suddenly granted the privilege (not right) to work in the US. It's because our government has driven the nation to the edge of collapse trying to win the pissing match instead of actually doing what it's supposed to. Another discussion for another thread, though.

What do you think the figure is that represents the number of illegals using STOLEN SS #'s , taking jobs and classroom seats from Americans who , by their heritage, deserve these jobs and seats???
The same thing WILL happen with Obombma's New Deal.
You don't think that the illegals, like the Terrorists, send their kids to school on how to get in and beat the system?? Especially the educated who are in the military and college.

[Whir]

I never claimed that it would be a perfect system, only that people couldn't simply claim to be eligible and be let in. Of course criminals will still bypass the system. You know what they say about locks -- they only keep honest people honest.

I don't think social security number thieves are really a consideration here as they have been beating the system for decades already.

And I really have no idea what the numbers are. Do you have any reliable information on it?

[pickel]

I never claimed that it would be a perfect system, only that people couldn't simply claim to be eligible and be let in. Of course criminals will still bypass the system. You know what they say about locks -- they only keep honest people honest.

I don't think social security number thieves are really a consideration here as they have been beating the system for decades already.

And I really have no idea what the numbers are. Do you have any reliable information on it?

Check this out...A few years ago, but.....

Illegal, but Not Undocumented: Identity Theft, Document Fraud, and Illegal Employment | Center for Immigration Studies

Obombma's New Deal opens the Rivergates to fraud and identity thief.

[Chuckiechan]

WTF? So blacks are primarily poor and incapable of getting jobs unless we get rid of the "illegal problem"?

Just how racist are you?

Not at all.

There are only so many jobs available, and so many people to fill them. Right now, there are too many people and not enough jobs. Add in hungry immigrants who will take "any job at any wage", and you have unfair competition against Americans who expect a fair shake. Blacks have grown up under our laws, and won't take "any job at any wage". They expect a fair shake just like you do.

And another dynamic you probably don't see where you live, is the concept of "work crews"... Mexican crews are mainly Mexican - Asian - Cambodia, Laos, Vietnam, etc., stick together. Blacks mix pretty seamlessly with whites. Try getting hired by a Mexican carpenter or drywall crew...good luck with that. They will refuse to speak English to you.

But if anyone discriminates, it's likely to be a Mexican against a black. And I'm speaking of "blue collar" California, non union trades and light manufacturing.

BTW, Tony. You come off as a simpleton where race is concerned. It's much more complicated and nuanced than:

WTF? So blacks are primarily poor and incapable of getting jobs unless we get rid of the "illegal problem"?

Just how racist are you?

If I must take the bait and defend myself against your calling me a racist - I've lived with and interacted with all races all of my life.

[Whir]

Explain how it does anything at all to change identity theft. It was illegal previously, it will still be illegal, and nothing the act does would provide any additional avenues for those criminals. If anything, it might provide up-and-coming criminals a way out of becoming one in the interest of self-preservation.

I certainly didn't think 10% of the US's population were illegal immigrants, but that's what your article alludes to. That's actually pretty incredible, in a not-so-cool way.

[SoloCamo]

Let me just touch on a few things here before I get to any real discussions.

Chuckiechan, I’m sure your “half of Mexico” figure is exaggeration for the purpose of making a point, but could you furnish numbers to the effect of how many illegal immigrants are on welfare in California versus how many work and how many _legal_ immigrants are versus how many work? Real numbers and not percentages as percentages can be misinterpreted.

Brandon, I don’t think they are willfully impeding progress, but standing by laws they’ve lived with and possibly voted on themselves. I am curious though as to how pickel, Chuckiechan and sharder would vote if they had the opportunity to change these laws to something more similar to what the DREAM Act is pushing.

As I said previously, TRB, the President, as our elected leader, has the ability and the right to create and or annul (or sidestep as it has been said) laws as he sees fit. We’ve already been down this path when DODT was bashing about. Presidential orders are nifty like that. Or am I wrong?

sharder, as history has shown us many, many times, civil disobedience _is_ the answer when a growing minority has a need of affecting change on the majority. At least non-violent disobedience -- violence only begets violence and has never gotten anyone but the ruling party anywhere. Look no further than the US civil rights movements and the current situations in the Middle East --particularly the Taliban or Egypt -- to show that I am correct here.

pickel, I understand your point about this new workforce supplanting hard-working Americans, veterans included. However, you cannot blame this on the people it would make legal workers. The blame must be placed on the people that do the hiring. Were it me, I would hire an American and especially a veteran above a card-holding immigrant. I haven’t seen anything in the available info that would make these quasi-Americans a consideration for affirmative action hiring practices either. To me, blaming the new workforce for taking American jobs is like blaming guns for killing people. I’m pretty sure you understand the concept I’m putting forth here.

Though I agree with tony on a great many points, I do not believe I can approach this from a justice over law point of view. It’s not about either to me. As I’ve said before, I feel that giving the _children_ of illegals a chance, when they have been raised here for a better part of their lives, is not a bad idea. In fact, it’s something that we, as a progressive nation which touts humanitarianism and equality above all else, _must_ do.

I also do not believe a comparison to US civil rights movements or Nazi Germany is adequate, though perhaps the Civil War and slavery is. In the former, women and blacks were already US citizens, as were the Jews in Germany. The people the DREAM Act would affect are not citizens at all, nor would it make them so.

I have no problem with casting out illegal immigrants and I feel those laws should be enforced, but, again, the children of those illegals had no choice in coming here. They have been raised American. They go to American schools, fight in the American military and just as any other American child, possess what could be a great future for America. And I’d be willing to bet that nine times out of ten, the illegal parents of these children would happily be deported if their children could stay and have a better life.

As far as I am aware, this act does NOT guarantee the parents of these children amnesty. They are just as illegal and subject to laws as they ever were. This is to say that many of the law arguments I’ve seen advanced by contributors to this thread have absolutely no basis in reality. It does not concern the parents of the immigrants, who are the people which broke the laws.

It does present a set of ramifications for children under 18 who have no other family in the US though. I am curious to know how that might be handled. Would their parents be grandfathered in? Would they be placed in foster or group homes? Yet another set of ethical and economical debates…

I've wrote up multiple posts at this point to reply in this thread, then deleted them, then wrote more and deleted them because I felt my point wasn't being made properly and would be misunderstood.

However, I must admit your post has summed up my view point better than any of my multiple attempts.

[Whir]

I've wrote up multiple posts at this point to reply in this thread, then deleted them, then wrote more and deleted them because I felt my point wasn't being made properly and would be misunderstood.

However, I must admit your post has summed up my view point better than any of my multiple attempts.

Glad to be of service.

Apparently I made my points so well that only pickel is bothering to refudiate. It's too bad because I really enjoy healthy debates -- they help me see something from angles I may not have considered.

[sharder8]

Glad to be of service.

Apparently I made my points so well that only pickel is bothering to refudiate. It's too bad because I really enjoy healthy debates -- they help me see something from angles I may not have considered.

Been busy . . . Son-in-law to me and the Grandson out for breakfast, then the family headed to the gun range for some family time. Will respond later . . .


Harder

[Whir]

sharder, as history has shown us many, many times, civil disobedience _is_ the answer when a growing minority has a need of affecting change on the majority. At least non-violent disobedience -- violence only begets violence and has never gotten anyone but the ruling party anywhere. Look no further than the US civil rights movements and the current situations in the Middle East --particularly the Taliban or Egypt -- to show that I am correct here.

Alas, I need to at least partially rescind my statement here. A history major friend of mine has assured me that violent disobedience has worked just as often in the past as non-violent, if not more so.

However, I still think that non-violent disobedience, protests, etc are the way to go. Nothing will be changed, for better or worse, without sacrifice and going against the tide.

[Networker4321]

Alas, I need to at least partially rescind my statement here. A history major friend of mine has assured me that violent disobedience has worked just as often in the past as non-violent, if not more so.

However, I still think that non-violent disobedience, protests, etc are the way to go. Nothing will be changed, for better or worse, without sacrifice and going against the tide.

As capable as I know I am, with all of the equipment I might need, what is going on in the world has me SCARED. I don't know, can't guess how this is going to work out but it is BAD, very BAD.

[pickel]

However, I still think that non-violent disobedience, protests, etc are the way to go. Nothing will be changed, for better or worse, without sacrifice and going against the tide.

I Agree !!!! As long as all the protesters have Firearms permit if the shit starts to get deep......

[Whir]

I Agree !!!! As long as all the protesters have Firearms permit if the shit starts to get deep......

/like

Hehe.

[Chuckiechan]

Chuckiechan, I’m sure your “half of Mexico” figure is exaggeration for the purpose of making a point, but could you furnish numbers to the effect of how many illegal immigrants are on welfare in California versus how many work and how many _legal_ immigrants are versus how many work? Real numbers and not percentages as percentages can be misinterpreted.

Children of illegal aliens are citizens and therefor are eligible for welfare. They routienly get AFDC and Food Stamps, plus WIC.

This is a rather old article, but things are probably about the same as 1997:
Deficit may trigger anti-illegal immigration ballot measure - Los Angeles Times

The largest costs to California's budget from its illegal residents are in three areas:

* Education: The state has no official count of how many students are in the country illegally because school districts do not ask. But the state legislative analyst estimated, based on data from the Pew Hispanic Center, that the state's 6.3 million public school students include about 300,000 illegal residents. At an annual cost of about $7,626 each, the total comes to nearly $2.3 billion.

* Prisons: In fiscal year 2009-10, California expects to spend about $834 million to incarcerate 19,000 illegal immigrants in the state's prisons. In Los Angeles County, illegal immigrants add between $370 million and $550 million annually to criminal justice costs, including prosecution, defense, probation and jails, according to Supervisor Mike Antonovich.

* Healthcare: The expected state tab for healthcare in fiscal 2009-10 is $703 million for as many as 780,000 illegal immigrants. Of that, $486 million goes to emergency services. But low-income illegal residents are also eligible for some nonemergency health services, including prenatal and postpartum care, abortions, breast and cervical cancer treatment and certain types of long-term care, such as stays in nursing homes. Most of the nonemergency care for illegal immigrants was authorized by the Legislature in the 1980s.

A lot of the illegal alien debate has to do with where you live. If you live in say, Wyoming - it's 3% and you aren't impacted all that much. In California, it's 27% and they seem to be everywhere.

Immigration Facts

Obama's amnesty has made the problem worse. Most people in the USA are not inclined to give kids the boot, but they are also not inclined to have another amnesty program. There is a growing push back at the changing demographics caused my unchecked and unqualified immigration due to high levels of unemployment and low wages for unskilled labor in California.

[Whir]

Thanks for the links!

[Mike]

So it begins...

Story link...

While some remain wary about coming forward, 72,000 young illegal immigrants sought work permits from the Obama administration in the past month, and a small, undisclosed number learned their applications were approved in recent days.

Soon, Mayra Gomez could be one of them. She and her husband, a private and mechanic in the U.S. Army Reserve, received a letter at their East Palo Alto home on Monday from U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services telling Gomez to come to the agency's San Francisco office to get her fingerprints taken.

Once a sign of a looming deportation, this fingerprint check was a message to Gomez she had one final step before she can get a work permit.

"I'm thinking about it all the time," said the 23-year-old UC Berkeley graduate, whose family brought her across the border from Mexico when she was a child.

Gomez declined a well-paying job offer this summer because she has no legal right to work, but that could change soon. More than just a job, however, Gomez said she is looking forward to living without the constant fear she could be torn apart from her U.S. citizen husband and their 1-year-old son.

Demographers estimate more than 1.2 million young illegal immigrants, and about 350,000 in California, could immediately qualify for the Obama administration's two-year work permits and protection from deportation, but nationwide only 72,000 have applied in the first month since the Obama administration began accepting applications on Aug. 15.

[sharder8]

Meanwhile, new estimates place the number who will qualify at 1.76 million.

A pro-amnesty group is forecasting that up to 1.76 million young illegal immigrants would get work permits under President Barack Obama’s de facto amnesty announced in June, amid a stalled economy and near-record levels of unemployment.

That estimate is twice as large as the 800,000 new workers predicted by White House officials.

Another 800,000 illegal immigrant youths will be eligible for the de facto amnesty once they graduate, said the report, released Aug. 7 by the Migration Policy Institute, a well-funded, D.C.-based pro-amnesty group

How is this going to help unemployment numbers?

The new estimate says the de facto amnesty would add as may workers to the legal rolls as the economy has created during the last 12 months, or during all of 2011. Currently, roughly 23 million Americans are unemployed or underemployed, or have dropped out of the workforce.

The officials unemployment rate is currently 8.3 percent, and that number is much higher among young people and minorities.

For example, half of African-Americans in New York are unemployed, and almost half of adults aged 18 to 24 are unemployed. Unemployment among Latinos is also high, with 10.3 percent recorded in July as formally unemployed and still looking for work, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics

The private sector has created only 1 million new jobs in 2012. That’s not enough to keep pace with population growth, which ads roughly 150,000 new graduates and legal immigrants each month.
The unemployment rate has remained flat, partly because hundreds of thousands of surplus workers have dropped out of the labor force. This continued drop in the workforce participation rate is creating a hidden army of unemployed Americans who will likely try to get jobs when the economy starts growing.

And more is coming out about why Obama did this . . .

The president’s campaign-season policy — which was pitched by officials as a large-scale exercise of “prosecutorial discretion” — has been credited by Democrats with boosting Obama’s support among Hispanic voters into the 70 percent level.

Obama’s campaign officials have frequently said they’re trying to win enough Hispanic voters to carry several swing states, including Virginia and Florida.

Controversy over the policy isn’t necessarily a negative for the Obama campaign, because Hispanic voters may feel pressured to rally around other Hispanics and vote for Obama if there’s heated public criticism of the policy

That's right folks . . . buying the votes!



Forgot to add SOURCE


Harder

[tony_j15]

She sounds like a well deserving case. I wonder how many other hard working, ethical young people there are in this country who are living in fear of deportation due to a decision their parents made when they were kids?
To me, it makes good sense to naturalize them. They pretty much are Americans already anyways. Let's complete that process so that they can be fully integrated.