Lawmakers Vote to Move Ahead With California Rail Link

[pickel]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/07/us...t.html?_r=1&hp

Despite deepening doubts about the cost and feasibility of a $70 billion high-speed rail proposed to cross California, the State Senate on Friday narrowly approved legislation to spend $8 billion in federal and state money to begin construction, starting with a 130-mile stretch through the rural Central Valley.

The vote came as the federal government threatened to withdraw $3.3 billion in financing for the 520-mile project if the Legislature did not approve the release of state bond money to begin construction. Democrats and Republicans expressed fear that the project could be remembered as a boondoggle passed when the state is struggling through a fiscal crisis.


State deficit estimate hits $16 billion - Los Angeles Times

IDIOTS One and All

[sharder8]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/07/us...t.html?_r=1&hp

Despite deepening doubts about the cost and feasibility of a $70 billion high-speed rail proposed to cross California, the State Senate on Friday narrowly approved legislation to spend $8 billion in federal and state money to begin construction, starting with a 130-mile stretch through the rural Central Valley.

The vote came as the federal government threatened to withdraw $3.3 billion in financing for the 520-mile project if the Legislature did not approve the release of state bond money to begin construction. Democrats and Republicans expressed fear that the project could be remembered as a boondoggle passed when the state is struggling through a fiscal crisis.


State deficit estimate hits $16 billion - Los Angeles Times

IDIOTS One and All

No surprise . . . You don't get much more Liberal or Democrat than California.

Que MTA from Left to center stage to explain how this is wise spending and good for the State of Califorclosure, (since pickel doesn't understand).

Why yes, when you're up to your ass in alligators with debt . . . spend even more to add croc's in with the alligators of debt to your throat.

Hey Chuckie, tell us about how you plan to pay for this?


Harder

[pickel]

California Assembly Approves High-speed Rail - HispanicBusiness.com

Republicans called the vote "flat-out nuts" and said they were "embarrassed to be a part of the Legislature," largely because this is the worst possible time to build the state's costliest project ever.

"Let me get this straight: We're going to build a train we don't need, with money we don't have?" said Assemblyman Tim Donnelly, R-Hesperia. "Are you wondering why people all over the world are laughing at Californians? Give me a break."

LMAO. Somebody hand me a Kleenex

[Chuckiechan]

Hey Chuckie, tell us about how you plan to pay for this?

Same thing they do now... borrow from somewhere.

Example: Obama mortgage relief money, or whatever it was called, was taken by the state and used to balance the budget.. with DC's blessing. No one got any help, just lip service... you won't hear that in the news!

The entire project is a retirement gig for lawyers. I wouldn't be surprised if nothing ever gets laid (except the taxpayer), before all the money is gone.

They want to compete with airlines. It costs like $ 200 for a non-stop round trip ticket between LA and Sacramento. HSR is planning to compete with this... then add infrastructure - parking, rental cars, etc. It's going to take much longer because they plan to add stops...

Then we have the business travel guy hearing from his boss: "Dude, everyone is flying in. Do you honestly expect me to pick you up at a rail station? Fly like everyone else, you idiot!"

We won't even go into security, and what a juicy target it is for sabotage. 200 mph through a cow pasture with no roads for easy rescue...Hmmm....

But, it's what you would expect from California! "Land of fruits and nuts"...

What a frikk'in mess... but I really don't give a damn anymore. I just enjoy my retired life... letting the rest of the Californian's fight over the scraps.

[pickel]

Same thing they do now... borrow from somewhere.

Example: Obama mortgage relief money, or whatever it was called, was taken by the state and used to balance the budget.. with DC's blessing. No one got any help, just lip service... you won't hear that in the news!

The entire project is a retirement gig for lawyers. I wouldn't be surprised if nothing ever gets laid (except the taxpayer), before all the money is gone.

They want to compete with airlines. It costs like $ 200 for a non-stop round trip ticket between LA and Sacramento. HSR is planning to compete with this... then add infrastructure - parking, rental cars, etc. It's going to take much longer because they plan to add stops...

Then we have the business travel guy hearing from his boss: "Dude, everyone is flying in. Do you honestly expect me to pick you up at a rail station? Fly like everyone else, you idiot!"

We won't even go into security, and what a juicy target it is for sabotage. 200 mph through a cow pasture with no roads for easy rescue...Hmmm....

But, it's what you would expect from California! "Land of fruits and nuts"...

What a frikk'in mess... but I really don't give a damn anymore. I just enjoy my retired life... letting the rest of the Californian's fight over the scraps.

Do yo have to go thru the TSA gauntlet to ride the rails ?????
No Ammo ????

[RicheemxX]

We can all flame bait Chuck but this is really bad election year politics at it's finest. I mean it's really Cal politics at the worst!! Party line voting is what kills the democratic process, these dummies think they need to uphold party lines so they blindly vote for bad legislation.

Sink or Swim we are stuck with the People's Republic of California

[Chuckiechan]

California is banking on a federal bail out when they finally hit the wall. That's why Obama is up 18% over Romney, with a jobless rate of ~ 11%. It is a state where hand out's are the order of the day. It seems everyone is on some kind of a dole from some "program" or another!

And as far as "flame baiting" me, I really don't mind. It's really a look into the long term effects of being a "blue state" with elections financed by public unions backing one candidate and crushing the other.

The "California Model" is something you all should be afraid of... Me? I'm past the age of caring, or needing to care for that matter, so I worry about my kids instead!

Regarding security, it depends. Most rail lines have very little security, so I suppose HSR will be no exception.

[tony_j15]

I'm generally in favor of high speed rail. It's a more efficient transportation system compared to cars/buses/planes and can be retrofitted to run without fossil fuels involved, so it's more or less future proof. The sooner we get projects like this up and running, the better off we are. They will never be cheaper.
Yes, California needs to get a handle on it's finances. But that involves raising taxes, which seems to be something impossible to get done out there.

Just FYI: the first segment they are starting on costs 8 billion, 3.3 coming from the Fed. So it costs California 4.7, or 36 million per mile.

[Chuckiechan]

Here's two opinions for you:

Bullet train: Will you ride the California rocket? | Crave - CNET

And
California's High Speed Rail: Some Facts

Now don't misunderstand the relationship of time to money.. 68 billion is today's estimate. It started out a 33 billion in 2008, and they are now looking at 100 billion in 2033 went is is expected to be completed.

How much travel do you do? This has to be aimed at business travel to make sense, as there aren't enough vacationers to make it pay. Certainly not between northern California and LA, especially when you are leaving your car home and have to rent one... or load all your crap on a bus...

Describe to me your expected experience on our new shiny HSR, please...

[tony_j15]

Describe to me your expected experience on our new shiny HSR, please...

Pay fair, get on train, ride, disembark. Just like any other plane/train/bus.

I don't plan on using it personally any time in the near future as I have no plans nor the money to visit California.
I find it interesting that in your second link Mr. Levinson suggests that a better use of the money would be renovating airports. Yeah, cuz those will still so super useful 100 years from now.

[Chuckiechan]

Pay fair, get on train, ride, disembark. Just like any other plane/train/bus.

And how long would you expect your trip to take, since it's ~ 2 hours to LA by airplane.

[Mikev2.0]

If you don't see benefits of a high-speed railway over airplane, you're delusional. The flight from SFO or OAK to LAX might be less than one hour by plane - but that doesn't include going through security, waiting on the tarmac, etc. The train would most certainly be used on a frequent basis by business people commuting to and from often.

Funding for the project, however, is the main problem with the idea.

[Chuckiechan]

Well, are you willing to pay 100 billion to do what the airlines have already done for free? The only public infrastructure is the airport and it is a cash cow for the cities. $ 16.00 a day parking, etc. $ 7.00 beer. Plus a butt load of ticket fees for the federalies, all balanced on the back of the passenger, and it's still ~ $ 200 bucks to fly from Sacramento to LA!

WAIT! I just checked Southwest and from Sacramento (SMF) to LA (LAX) the "wanna get away" ticket is $ 136.00 on Monday July 9th. And there are eight flights if you don't want an early morning flight.

It's a waste of money, and a fantasy. If it's so good where is the private money?

Plus there are other stops, each taking time. You still need to park, assuming you take a car, and you need to get off and go where you need to go, assuming you plan to go somewhere.

All you are doing is using public money to duplicate what the private sector has done, and done well. BTW, how's Amtrak doing? Do you ride the train?

[sharder8]

If you don't see benefits of a high-speed railway over airplane, you're delusional. The flight from SFO or OAK to LAX might be less than one hour by plane - but that doesn't include going through security, waiting on the tarmac, etc. The train would most certainly be used on a frequent basis by business people commuting to and from often.

Funding for the project, however, is the main problem with the idea.

If it comes to pass, you will see the same issues of security, waiting in the station, etc.


Harder

[Chuckiechan]

If it comes to pass, you will see the same issues of security, waiting in the station, etc.

Actually, worse than that. It will become like BART - thugs and criminals, if they can afford it. Hopefully, they can't. But that's not the point is it?

You want to compete with air travel, not buses, correct?

I don't think I'm the one who is delusional.

[Mikev2.0]

LOL. If you think BART is nothing but thugs and criminals, you're smoking something wonderful from the Sierra Nevada foothills. If that's your perception of BART, I think we're done discussing anything further. Dare I ask how many times you've ridden BART?

[Theophylact]

It's not as though the airline industry is a good example of a profit-making enterprise:

The overall trend of demand has been consistently increasing. In the 1950s and 1960s, annual growth rates of 15% or more were common. Annual growth of 5-6% persisted through the 1980s and 1990s. Growth rates are not consistent in all regions, but countries with a de-regulated airline industry have more competition and greater pricing freedom. This results in lower fares and sometimes dramatic spurts in traffic growth. The U.S., Australia, Canada, Japan, Brazil, India and other markets exhibit this trend. The industry has been observed to be cyclical in its financial performance. Four or five years of poor earnings precede five or six years of improvement. But profitability even in the good years is generally low, in the range of 2-3% net profit after interest and tax. In times of profit, airlines lease new generations of airplanes and upgrade services in response to higher demand. Since 1980, the industry has not earned back the cost of capital during the best of times. Conversely, in bad times losses can be dramatically worse. Warren Buffett once said that despite all the money that has been invested in all airlines, the net profit is less than zero. He believes it is one of the hardest businesses to manage.

[Chuckiechan]

Once... but HSR is more like Amtrak than Bart.

Depends on when you are riding I guess.

Have you ever ridden Amtrak?

[Chuckiechan]

It's not as though the airline industry is a good example of a profit-making enterprise:

That's mainly due to robust competition and "friendly" tax laws. They are still flying and paying employees! Not bad for operating at a loss.

HSR is one train, take it or leave it.

Mikey, do you wear one of those goofy conductor hats?

California really wants to get started on the federally funded part to paper over it's failing budget and to keep SEIU and AFSCME union members from being laid off. The first leg is from Madera to Bakersfield.. Uhh.. from nowhere to nowhere. Even the cows carry maps out there!

But it gets federal money to pour into the state budget with the promise to pay HSR bills as they come due... probably with IOU's?

[RicheemxX]

If you don't see benefits of a high-speed railway over airplane, you're delusional. The flight from SFO or OAK to LAX might be less than one hour by plane - but that doesn't include going through security, waiting on the tarmac, etc. The train would most certainly be used on a frequent basis by business people commuting to and from often.

Funding for the project, however, is the main problem with the idea.

This is really one of my major complaints with this project. We are spending billions to fund something that really doesn't benefit most of California and won't benefit anyone in most of Northern California for years to come. I think that money could be better spent on other projects.

At least if they went about updating and retrofitting the airports it would be a multiuse project. This is once again a case of Southern California politicians pushing through legislation that helps them without consideration for most of the rest of the state!