Why someone needs an AR-15

[The Real Bingo]

I thought that this question deserved its own topic. Mikey2.0 raised the question in another thread:

Can't even blame weapons. Then again, why does someone need an AR-15? You know, the same gun that ends up being purchased illegally by street gang bangers and Mexican cartels.

My answer is simply because that's what our government has. It was the founders intention to ensure the citizenry obtain arms in order to place a check on the government; to prevent tyranny. In addition to defense against our own government, it is a defense against an invading force. Should it get past our Army and National Guard, the people are automatically commissioned into battle. We possess no tanks or artillery or WMDs, but the best defense against an enemy on the ground with an "assault rifle" is a bigger assault rifle.

And finally...they're fun to shoot!

[pickel]

I thought that this question deserved its own topic. Mikey2.0 raised the question in another thread:



My answer is simply because that's what our government has. It was the founders intention to ensure the citizenry obtain arms in order to place a check on the government; to prevent tyranny. In addition to defense against our own government, it is a defense against an invading force. Should it get past our Army and National Guard, the people are automatically commissioned into battle. We possess no tanks or artillery or WMDs, but the best defense against an enemy on the ground with an "assault rifle" is a bigger assault rifle.

And finally...they're fun to shoot!

Nothing like sitting back about 300 yds and popping beer cans w/ my M1 Garand !!!


With the right Ammo, of course..

Black Hills Gold Ammo 30-06 Springfield 168 Grain Hornady Match Hollow

[sharder8]

Nothing like sitting back about 300 yds and popping beer cans w/ my M1 Garand !!!


With the right Ammo, of course..

Black Hills Gold Ammo 30-06 Springfield 168 Grain Hornady Match Hollow

Nothing like sitting back about 500 yds and popping beer cans w/ my M1903 MK1 !!

With the right Ammo, of course . . .

Then again, I can reach out farther and just as accurate, with my K11.




Harder

[Taxmancometh]

How much can an AR-15 go for? And do you have to go through special procedures in order to have one?

[sharder8]

I can get them for anywhere between $450 and $1,000. Must be 21 and pass a background check.

[Taxmancometh]

Then I'm cool.

[ShyguyXPC]

oddly I have even been thinking about buying something like one of these or similar rifles just to have for target shooting with some friends. (have a few friends that like to get together and shoot the sh*t out of stuff on another friends farm, with their handguns)

Been looking at some of the ones DPMS (Local company) sells.

DPMS Firearms


Though every one I look at is well over a grand

[Whir]

Nothing like sitting back about 500 yds and popping beer cans w/ my M1903 MK1 !!

With the right Ammo, of course . . .

Then again, I can reach out farther and just as accurate, with my K11.




Harder

Hm. I'd like to shoot those. We have a K31 and I can hit a 12" metal plate at 100yds with open sights with it. Probably the most accurate large bore rifle I've ever shot.

There are a couple different Lee-Enfields in the collection, but I can never keep track.

We do have an SKS for semi-auto fire if needed. Chances of needed are very slim though.

[Whir]

Also, if you know how, you can bump-fire an AR-15 at a pretty high rate. I don't know how though as I've never shot one.

[pickel]

How much can an AR-15 go for? And do you have to go through special procedures in order to have one?

Taxman: What do YOU need an AR-15 for ???? I thought you were a "Turn the other Cheek" guy

[GroundZero3]

Tax certain medical conditions could limit your weapon purchase

[The Real Bingo]

How much can an AR-15 go for? And do you have to go through special procedures in order to have one?

I can get them for anywhere between $450 and $1,000. Must be 21 and pass a background check.

Tax certain medical conditions could limit your weapon purchase

It varies by state.

Colorado - Taxman's home state - seems similar to Pennsylvania when it comes to purchases, where one can buy a long gun from a private seller without a background check. No different than going to a yard sale and buying a piece of furniture. So if he wants to save some money and hassle, he can avoid dealers all together. The seller is obliged, however, not to sell the weapon if he believes the buyer to be someone unable to own/possess a firearm under the law.

[Whir]

Nothing like sitting back about 500 yds and popping beer cans w/ my M1903 MK1 !!

With the right Ammo, of course . . .

Then again, I can reach out farther and just as accurate, with my K11.




Harder

Just found out dad sold the K31 a little while ago. In fact, most of the collection has been sold off. Still have the 1891 Argentine though, so at least there's something worth going to the range with.

[no1_vern]

It's nice to see you guys have your priorities straight.

Changing the topic from "Why someone needs an Ar-15" into "I can do this or that with a M1 Garand, MK1 or a K11 or . . . "

The guy had an extended magazine that jammed! How many times do we have to tell future terrorists/anarchy agents DONT USE unreliable gear!!

[tony_j15]

I haven't seen a single post in this thread explaining why one needs an AR-15. I thought that was the thread topic?

[The Real Bingo]

Feel free to contribute, Tony.

[brandon184]

Here's what actor Jason Alexander has to say on the topic. Spare the ad hominem criticisms of the hollywood elite and let's talk about the substance of the arguments, which he invested a lot of time in putting together. I thought it was a good read.

I'd like to preface this long tweet by saying that my passion comes from my deepest sympathy and shared sorrow with yesterday's victims and with the utmost respect for the people and the police/fire/medical/political forces of Aurora and all who seek to comfort and aid these victims.

This morning, I made a comment about how I do not understand people who support public ownership of assault style weapons like the AR-15 used in the Colorado massacre. AR-15 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That comment, has of course, inspired a lot of feedback. There have been many tweets of agreement and sympathy but many, many more that have been challenging at the least, hostile and vitriolic at the worst.

Clearly, the angry, threatened and threatening, hostile comments are coming from gun owners and gun advocates. Despite these massacres recurring and despite the 100,000 Americans that die every year due to domestic gun violence - these people see no value to even considering some kind of control as to what kinds of weapons are put in civilian hands.

Many of them cite patriotism as their reason - true patriots support the Constitution adamantly and wholly. Constitution says citizens have the right to bear arms in order to maintain organized militias. I'm no constitutional scholar so here it is from the document itself:

As passed by the Congress:
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
As ratified by the States and authenticated by Thomas Jefferson, Secretary of State:
"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

So the patriots are correct, gun ownership is in the constitution - if you're in a well-regulated militia. Let's see what no less a statesman than Alexander Hamilton had to say about a militia:

"A tolerable expertness in military movements is a business that requires time and practice. It is not a day, or even a week, that will suffice for the attainment of it. To oblige the great body of the yeomanry, and of the other classes of the citizens, to be under arms for the purpose of going through military exercises and evolutions, as often as might be necessary to acquire the degree of perfection which would entitle them to the character of a well-regulated militia, would be a real grievance to the people, and a serious public inconvenience and loss."

Or from Merriam-Webster dictionary:
Definition of MILITIA
1
a : a part of the organized armed forces of a country liable to call only in emergency
b : a body of citizens organized for military service
2
: the whole body of able-bodied male citizens declared by law as being subject to call to military service

The advocates of guns who claim patriotism and the rights of the 2nd Amendment - are they in well-regulated militias? For the vast majority - the answer is no.

Then I get messages from seemingly decent and intelligent people who offer things like: @BrooklynAvi: Guns should only be banned if violent crimes committed with tomatoes means we should ban tomatoes. OR @nysportsguys1: Drunk drivers kill, should we ban fast cars?

I'm hoping that right after they hit send, they take a deep breath and realize that those arguments are completely specious. I believe tomatoes and cars have purposes other than killing. What purpose does an AR-15 serve to a sportsman that a more standard hunting rifle does not serve? Let's see - does it fire more rounds without reload? Yes. Does it fire farther and more accurately? Yes. Does it accommodate a more lethal payload? Yes. So basically, the purpose of an assault style weapon is to kill more stuff, more fully, faster and from further away. To achieve maximum lethality. Hardly the primary purpose of tomatoes and sports cars.

Then there are the tweets from the extreme right - these are the folk who believe our government has been corrupted and stolen and that the forces of evil are at play, planning to take over this nation and these folk are going to fight back and take a stand. And any moron like me who doesn't see it should...
a. be labeled a moron
b. shut the fuck up
c. be removed

And amazingly, I have some minor agreement with these folks. I believe there are evil forces at play in our government. But I call them corporatists. I call them absolutists. I call them the kind of ideologues from both sides, but mostly from the far right who swear allegiance to unelected officials that regardless of national need or global conditions, are never to levy a tax. That they are never to compromise or seek solutions with the other side. That are to obstruct every possible act of governance, even the ones they support or initiate. Whose political and social goal is to marginalize the other side, vilify and isolate them with the hope that they will surrender, go away or die out.

These people believe that the US government is eventually going to go street by street and enslave our citizens. Now as long as that is only happening to liberals, homosexuals and democrats - no problem. But if they try it with anyone else - it's going to be arms-ageddon and these committed, God-fearing, brave souls will then use their military-esque arsenal to show the forces of our corrupt government whats-what. These people think they meet the definition of a "militia". They don't. At least not the constitutional one. And, if it should actually come to such an unthinkable reality, these people believe they would win. That's why they have to "take our country back". From who? From anyone who doesn't think like them or see the world like them. They hold the only truth, everyone else is dangerous. Ever meet a terrorist that doesn't believe that? Just asking.

Then there are the folks who write that if everyone in Colorado had a weapon, this maniac would have been stopped. Perhaps. But I do believe that the element of surprise, tear gas and head to toe kevlar protection might have given him a distinct edge. Not only that, but a crowd of people firing away in a chaotic arena without training or planning - I tend to think that scenario could produce even more victims.

Lastly, there are these well-intended realists that say that people like this evil animal would get these weapons even if we regulated them. And they may be right. But he wouldn't have strolled down the road to Kmart and picked them up. Regulated, he would have had to go to illegal sources - sources that could possibly be traced, watched, overseen. Or he would have to go deeper online and those transactions could be monitored. "Hm, some guy in Aurora is buying guns, tons of ammo and kevlar - plus bomb-making ingredients and tear gas. Maybe we should check that out."

But that won't happen as long as all that activity is legal and unrestricted.

I have been reading on and off as advocates for these weapons make their excuses all day long. Guns don't kill - people do. Well if that's correct, I go with @BrooklynAvi, let them kill with tomatoes. Let them bring baseball bats, knives, even machetes --- a mob can deal with that.

There is no excuse for the propagation of these weapons. They are not guaranteed or protected by our constitution. If they were, then we could all run out and purchase a tank, a grenade launcher, a bazooka, a SCUD missile and a nuclear warhead. We could stockpile napalm and chemical weapons and bomb-making materials in our cellars under our guise of being a militia.

These weapons are military weapons. They belong in accountable hands, controlled hands and trained hands. They should not be in the hands of private citizens to be used against police, neighborhood intruders or people who don't agree with you. These are the weapons that maniacs acquire to wreak murder and mayhem on innocents. They are not the same as handguns to help homeowners protect themselves from intruders. They are not the same as hunting rifles or sporting rifles. These weapons are designed for harm and death on big scales.

SO WHY DO YOU CONTINUE TO SUPPORT THEM? WHY DO YOU NOT, AT LEAST, AGREE TO SIT WITH REASONABLE PEOPLE FROM BOTH SIDES AND ASK HARD QUESTIONS AND LOOK AT HARD STATISTICS AND POSSIBLY MAKE SOME COMPROMISES FOR THE GREATER GOOD? SO THAT MOTHERS AND FATHERS AND CHILDREN ARE NOT SLAUGHTERED QUITE SO EASILY BY THESE MONSTERS? HOW CAN IT HURT TO STOP DEFENDING THESE THINGS AND AT LEAST CONSIDER HOW WE CAN ALL WORK TO TRY TO PREVENT ANOTHER DAY LIKE YESTERDAY?

We will not prevent every tragedy. We cannot stop every maniac. But we certainly have done ourselves no good by allowing these particular weapons to be acquired freely by just about anyone.

I'll say it plainly - if someone wants these weapons, they intend to use them. And if they are willing to force others to "pry it from my cold, dead hand", then they are probably planning on using them on people.

So, sorry those of you who tell me I'm an actor, or a has-been or an idiot or a commie or a liberal and that I should shut up. You can not watch my stuff, you can unfollow and you can call me all the names you like. I may even share some of them with my global audience so everyone can get a little taste of who you are.

But this is not the time for reasonable people, on both sides of this issue, to be silent. We owe it to the people whose lives were ended and ruined yesterday to insist on a real discussion and hopefully on some real action.

In conclusion, whoever you are and wherever you stand on this issue, I hope you have the joy of family with you today. Hold onto them and love them as best you can. Tell them what they mean to you. Yesterday, a whole bunch of them went to the movies and tonight their families are without them. Every day is precious. Every life is precious. Take care. Be well. Be safe. God bless.

Jason Alexander

[Whir]

Sorry. I have a hard time resisting talking about classic rifles when someone brings them up.

I'm not real sure here, but was there a reason someone doesn't need an AR-15? I mean, no one _needs_ one, nor any other gun. Isn't the point that it's _legal_ to own one and the government telling us we can't is against the law?

The AR-15 is a great choice for all sorts of civilian purposes. The rifle has an excellent reputation as it's been continually improved from its inception during the Vietnam War (I may be off on that, but I'm pretty sure). Ammunition is easily available and inexpensive. It's heavily modifiable for all sorts of purposes from hunting to home defense.

So there's no question that no one needs any gun at all let alone an AR-15, but there are several reasons it's a good weapon to have.


More on topic?

[Whir]

I think he's got the gist of the crux of the situation down pretty well. He's obviously firmly on the anti-assault rifle side, and I'm okay with that. I do not think that assault rifles should be banned, but I do not think you should be able to walk into Walmart (or any other store) and buy them without a license, which is acquired after taking safety and handling courses. As far as I'm aware, requiring someone to take a class is not an infringement on our rights (so long as the classes are free), but maybe they are.

The thing is, you can go buy a semi-automatic .22 and a 100-round drum magazine and that's not an assault rifle, but in a crowded venue, it's just as deadly.

[pickel]

I haven't seen a single post in this thread explaining why one needs an AR-15. I thought that was the thread topic?

That's why I have an $ 110.00 SKS. I can't afford an AR-15, much less the ammo or I would have a tricked out model.