Another Florida CCW permit holder successfully defends his property!

**Gomer** · July 29th, 2012, 10:40 PM

Originally Posted by Gomer

From 2000-2006 there were 0.20 violent deaths involving vehicles per 100,000 people.

During the same time period there were 50x as many violent deaths involving firearms.

And while we're on the subject... During that time period, there was only 1 person killed with a firearm during a legal intervention for every 100 that were killed violently.

**sharder8** · July 29th, 2012, 10:41 PM

Originally Posted by tony_j15

Well, let's think about that for a moment. What does one have to do to be able to drive a car? I need to:
be 18 for a full license
be properly documented
pass a written exam
pass a road exam with an instructor
obtain insurance
Get a car!!
Get it inspected!
Go back every other year for another inspection!

Not in OREGON!!!

You do not need to be 18!
You do not need to be properly documented!
You do not need to pass!
You do not need to pass a road exam with an instructor!
You do not need insurance!
You do need a car!
You do not need to get the car inspected!
You do not ever need to go back and get any inspection!

All you need is a consular ID and speak Spanish! (Note: consular ID is not verified or logged for search. Consular ID is not recognized by the Mexican government for ID purposes.)

Better check other states laws tony . . . you were incorrect on 7 of the 8 requirements, when it comes to Oregon! You can probably expect other states to follow suit, if they have Liberal Democrat Governors.

Harder

**sharder8** · July 29th, 2012, 10:46 PM

Originally Posted by brandon184

I think gun control supporters would be more than happy if there was much regulation on guns as there are on cars. Good work, Bingo! Achieving compromise!

Ah-h-h-h-h NO!

If they base it on Oregon's car regulations . . .

I agree we should have some regulation, but some states (Oregon), set a bad precedence, if you use car regulations.

Harder

**Gomer** · July 29th, 2012, 10:48 PM

Originally Posted by sharder8

Not in OREGON!!!

You do not need to be 18!
You do not need to be properly documented!
You do not need to pass!
You do not need to pass a road exam with an instructor!
You do not need insurance!
You do need a car!
You do not need to get the care inspected!
You do not ever need to go back and get any inspection!

All you need is a consular ID and speak Spanish! (Note: consular ID is not verified on logged for search. Consular ID is not recognized by the Mexican government for ID purposes.)

Better check other states laws tony . . . you were incorrect on 7 of the 8 requirements, when it comes to Oregon! You can probably expect other states to follow suit, if they have Liberal Democrat Governors.

Harder

Say what?

You live there, don't you? I think you should check your own state's laws before you jump down Tony's throat

From Oregon's DMV website:
Under 18:

To Qualify/Apply
You must apply in person at a DMV office, and you must:

Be a resident of or domiciled in Oregon;
Be 16 to 17 years of age (click here if 18 or older);
Have no suspended, canceled, revoked or otherwise withdrawn driving privileges in Oregon or any other state;
Have had a valid instruction permit from Oregon, another state or the District of Columbia for at least six months. The instruction permit must have been valid for at least six months in the issuing state or District of Columbia. This requirement does not apply if you submit a valid license from another state;
Complete the required minimum hours of supervised driving experience. This driving must be done with a driver at least 21 years of age who has had a valid license for at least three years. You must certify your driving experience when you apply. This requirement does not apply if you submit a valid driver license from another state. Minimum driving experience required is:
- 50 hours and an ODOT-approved traffic safety education course. You must present the original course completion card when you apply; OR
- 100 hours;
Provide proof of school enrollment, completion or exemption if you are applying for an Oregon driving privilege for the first time;
Submit a completed Driver License Application (Form 735-173). The application must include your parent or legal guardian's signature unless you are married or an emancipated minor. If you answer "yes" to any of the medical questions on the application, as outlined in OAR 735-062-0007 (2)(a)(b)(c), DMV will not issue you driving privileges until you have established that your condition does not affect your ability to drive safely. DMV may ask you to provide additional medical information and/or require that you pass additional DMV tests;
Present proof of your full legal name;
Present proof of your legal presence in the U.S., identity and date of birth;
Provide your Social Security Number (SSN) on the application;
Present proof of your residence address;
Pass the Class C knowledge test if you do not have an Oregon Instruction Permit that is valid or expired less than one year;
Pass a Safe Driving Practices knowledge test. The information you need to pass the test is in the Oregon Driver Manual. You are allowed to take the test 30 days prior to your 16th birthday;
Make an appointment for a drive test. If you have a valid driver license issued by another state, you may not be required to take the drive test;
Pass the drive test. If you do not have proof of insurance for the vehicle, you will have to reschedule the drive test;
Pass a vision screening test as defined in OAR 735-062-0050;
Surrender any valid Oregon ID Card;
Surrender any valid driver license or permit issued by another jurisdiction;
Pay the applicable testing and licensing fees. You must pay test fees prior to taking any test. Be prepared to make separate payments for your testing and licensing fees; and
Have your photograph taken.

Over 18:

To Qualify/Apply
You must apply in person at a DMV office, and you must:

Be a resident of or domiciled in Oregon;
Be at least 18 years of age (click here if under 18);
Have no suspended, canceled, revoked, or otherwise withdrawn driving privileges in Oregon or any other state;
Submit a completed Driver License Application (Form 735-173). If you answer “yes” to any of the medical questions on the application as outlined in OAR 735-062-0007 (2)(a)(b)(c), DMV will not issue you driving privileges until you have established that your condition does not affect your ability to drive safely. DMV may ask you to provide additional medical information and/or require that you pass additional DMV tests;
Present proof of your full legal name;
Present proof of your legal presence in the U.S., identity and date of birth;
Provide your Social Security Number on the application;
Present proof of your residence address;
Pass the Class C knowledge test;
Make an appointment for a drive test. If you have a valid driver license issued by a U.S. State, you may not be required to take the drive test;
Pass the drive test. If you do not have proof of insurance for the vehicle, you will have to reschedule the drive test;
Pass a vision screening as defined in OAR 735-062-0050;
Surrender any valid Oregon ID Card;
Surrender any valid driver license or permit issued by another jurisdiction;
Pay the applicable testing and licensing fees. You must pay test fees prior to taking any test. Be prepared to make separate payments for your testing and licensing fees; and
Have your photograph taken.

**sharder8** · July 29th, 2012, 10:51 PM

I do live here Gomer and YOU need to check out what our Governor did this spring through Executive Order.

I'll even make it easy for you . . . READ IT AND WEEP!

Harder

**Gomer** · July 29th, 2012, 10:58 PM

Originally Posted by sharder8

I do live here Gomer and YOU need to check out what our Governor did this spring through Executive Order.

I'll even make it easy for you . . .

Harder

I'm waiting. I provided a link to the DMV that spells out what is required.

You provided me

**sharder8** · July 29th, 2012, 10:59 PM

Originally Posted by Gomer

I'm waiting. I provided a link to the DMV that spells out what is required.

You provided me

I added a link . . . but it didn't save. Re-edited, so you have the link.

Harder

**Gomer** · July 29th, 2012, 11:03 PM

Originally Posted by sharder8

I added a link . . . but it didn't save. Re-edited, so you have the link.

Harder

That states that they can use it for identification. Not that it qualifies as a drivers license.

FAIL

**tony_j15** · July 29th, 2012, 11:04 PM

Originally Posted by Taxmancometh

Yeah right, cars are regulated?

Yeah. right. Cars are regulated. Did you read what I wrote? Did you think before posting? Ya might want to try that in the future.

Originally Posted by The Real Bingo

So what you're saying is even with the restrictions licensed drivers kill more than gun owners as a whole. Thanks for proving that licensing/registering is ineffective for safety concerns. All it does is let big brother track us, tax us, and make sure we obey.

That would be one way to look at it, but it's not the only method. I only ran the data one way, and Gomer showed that running it per capita makes guns more deadly than cars (would love to see a link on that, Gomer).
The two are not apples to apples though, which makes it hazardous for you to claim licensing is "ineffective for safety concerns." Why? Let's think it through. One industry is regulated to the point where some people cannot participate in an activity. The other is not. Which is which? I think you know. And what does it mean? The stats will never really jive. Especially since a gun is an item whose purpose is to put a hole in something and a car's purpose is to get you from A to B.

Originally Posted by sharder8

Not in OREGON!!!

You do not need to be 18!
You do not need to be properly documented!
You do not need to pass!
You do not need to pass a road exam with an instructor!
You do not need insurance!
You do need a car!
You do not need to get the car inspected!
You do not ever need to go back and get any inspection!

All you need is a consular ID and speak Spanish! (Note: consular ID is not verified or logged for search. Consular ID is not recognized by the Mexican government for ID purposes.)

Better check other states laws tony . . . you were incorrect on 7 of the 8 requirements, when it comes to Oregon! You can probably expect other states to follow suit, if they have Liberal Democrat Governors.

Huh, that's funny. You see, according to this seldom used site it says you need a written test, road test, vehicle inspection, proof of name, valid SSN, test fee, and proof of insurance.
And now I'm all confused. Who should I believe? The freakn' .gov site of the state of Oregon? Or sharder?

*while writing this I see Gomer and sharder have already gone back and forth on this but I'm going to post this as-is anyway.*

**sharder8** · July 29th, 2012, 11:10 PM

Originally Posted by Gomer

That states that they can use it for identification. Not that it qualifies as a drivers license.

FAIL

Quite contrary -

LE has been informed that it would suffice for ID'ing the driver. LE can then cite and release for no drivers lic. and those illegal will never appear in court. Prior, they could hold until verification of status and then turn those who are illegal over to ICE. Now, they can only cite and release. The law requiring a lic. has been side stepped.

Last Tuesday, the Governor of Oregon, John Kitzhaber (D), announced that state and local officers will begin accepting Matricula Consular ID cards issued by the Mexican government as proof of identity for illegal aliens during traffic and other stops. (Associated Press, May 2, 2012)

Four years ago, Oregon toughened its driver’s license policies to prevent illegal aliens from receiving and renewing licenses, but now the state is backing down. (The Oregonian, June 29, 2008) Governor Kitzhaber, glossing over the fact that illegal aliens are violating federal immigration law and state laws by driving unlicensed, claimed that police no longer have an accurate way of identifying illegal aliens during traffic stops. (See Gov. Kitzhaber Letter, May 1, 2012; see also Associated Press, May 2, 2012)

Mexican Matricula Consular cards are highly susceptible to fraud. The Mexican government issues them to Mexican nationals residing outside of Mexico, regardless of their immigration status. (See FAIR Matricula Consular ID Summary, 2003) The Mexican government has no centralized database to coordinate the issuance of the ID cards, and multiple cards can easily be obtained under the same name and address, or with the same photograph, making it easy to establish false identities. (FBI Testimony, June 26, 2003).

Moreover, the FBI has long held that the cards are "not a reliable form of identification" and pose dangers to national security. (Id.) Having a Matricula Consular ID makes it easier for illegal aliens to move about the country, avoid triggering watch-lists, conceal identities from law enforcement, facilitate human trafficking and smuggling, and establish bank accounts to wire money outside the United States. (Id.; see also FAIR Matricula Consular ID Summary, 2003)

Nonetheless, Gov. Kitzhaber gave no indication of fear of such risks, instead expressing his goals for illegal aliens to "come out of the shadows and contribute to [Oregon’s] economic recovery," and hinting at his desire for illegal aliens to be allowed to own driver’s licenses again. (See Gov. Kitzhaber Letter, May 1, 2012)

**Gomer** · July 29th, 2012, 11:11 PM

Originally Posted by sharder8

Quite contrary -

LE has been informed that it would suffice for ID'ing the driver. LE can then cite and release for no drivers lic. and those illegal will never appear in court. Prior, they could hold until verification of status and then turn those who are illegal over to ICE. Now, they can only cite and release. The law requiring a lic. has been side stepped.

So Tony was right. All of the requirements he outlined for obtaining a drivers license are valid in Oregon.

Thank you for validating his position.

**sharder8** · July 29th, 2012, 11:13 PM

From another site:

Q. Why should I get a Mexican ID?
A. Criminal Friendly Cities like Los Angeles that recognize the ID, will make life easier for you.

Q. What are the advantages of having a Mexican ID?
A. A Mexican ID can be used in lieu of a driver's license to access a wide range of public services in the City and County of Los Angeles.

Q. Do I have to be a Mexican to get a Mexican ID?
A. No, you only have to present a forged Mexican Birth Certificate to the Mexican Consulate in Los Angeles.

Q. What if I am an Anglo Criminal. Can I still get a Mexican ID?
A. Technically, yes. But unlike our local authorities, the Mexican Government profiles. The Consulate might get suspicious if you have blond hair and blue eyes.

Q. Many Mexicans like myself were born in a small village where most of the newborn didn't even obtain birth certificates. What should I do?
A. Not to worry. Use a forged birth certificate which you can obtain for $25.00 on Alvarado Blvd in the Mac Arthur Park section of L.A. The Mexican Consulate does not verify the information on the birth certificate. But even if they did, they are no better at verifying birth certificates than the L.A. City Council.

Q. What if I get stopped for going through a red light. Will I be deported?
A. No. Upon presenting your Mexican ID, the LAPD officer who stops you, will know that you are illegally in the country, otherwise you wouldn't need the Mexican ID in the first place. Deporting you would defeat the purpose of the ID. You will only get a ticket.

Q. Will I have to pay the ticket?
A. No. You won't have to pay the ticket because it will be too much trouble to track you down. But to be on the safe side, you should have several false Mexican IDs to show on different occasions to confuse the LAPD regarding your identity. None of your IDs should have the correct address or contact information. LAPD officers will not be able to do a "make" on you to verify any information you give them. Remember, once an LAPD officer gives you a ticket, he's done and you are on your way.

Q. What if I am a fugitive and get stopped for going through a red light in a car that I just stole. Will I go to jail?
A. No. When you present your Mexican ID to the LAPD officer, he will have no way of knowing that you are a serial killer or that you just stole the car you were stopped in. The worst that will happen is that the car you just stole will be impounded and the officer will tell you that you will have to walk home. But you won't have to walk home if you steal another car.

Q. If I am an American Citizen or legal resident who has a valid ID such as a driver's license, is there an advantage to also obtaining a Mexican ID?
A. Yes. There is a big advantage for criminals to use a Mexican ID instead of a valid California driver's license. If you are stopped by an LAPD officer for an infraction, he won't know that you are a criminal if you show a Mexican ID. That's why it is a good idea to leave your California driver's license home.

Q. Why would the Mexican Consulate issue a Mexican ID if I already have a valid California ID?
A. The Mexican government recognizes dual citizenship. If you or your mother are from Mexico, they will be happy to provide you with a supplemental Mexican ID. But just to stay on the safe side, don't tell them that you are an American Citizen or Legal Resident.

Q. What happens if the Mexican Consulate figures out that I am trying to obtain a Mexican ID with a false birth certificate?
A. Nothing. But they won't let you have the ID.

**sharder8** · July 29th, 2012, 11:16 PM

Originally Posted by Gomer

So Tony was right. All of the requirements he outlined for obtaining a drivers license are valid in Oregon.

Thank you for validating his position.

No, tony is not correct . . .

You do not need a lic., if you have the Consular ID. Yes, they can cite you, but if you've gone to the trouble of getting it, why would you have your real address on it??? Read what I posted above.

Harder

**Gomer** · July 29th, 2012, 11:19 PM

Originally Posted by sharder8

No, tony is not correct . . .

You do not need a lic., if you have the Consular ID. Yes, they can cite you, but if you've gone to the trouble of getting it, why would you have your real address on it??? Read what I posted above.

Harder

"Yes, they can CITE you,"

Tony has outlinined the requirements to legally drive a motor vehicle. You have provided nothing to the contrary.

Let's forget about your hardon for Mexicans for a second... If your counter-position is that anyone can drive a car, why don't you just use a 5 year old for an example. All they need is the keys. Right?

**sharder8** · July 29th, 2012, 11:27 PM

Please explain why you need a drivers lic. to drive in the state of Oregon, when all you need is a Consular ID, get cited and released, without having to go to court? Explain how will be enforced, when they don't have enough staff to man the highways, let alone go looking for you, because you didn't show up and pay your fines.

You DO know why OR passed the law required proof of citizenship for a drivers lic. as well right???

I know you have a hardon for allowing illegals to vote Gomer, that's one of the ways Democrats can get votes . . . just like our Governor bought votes with this Executive Order.

Harder

**Gomer** · July 29th, 2012, 11:34 PM

Originally Posted by sharder8

Please explain why you need a drivers lic. to drive in the state of Oregon, when all you need is a Consular ID, get cited and released, without having to go to court? Explain how will be enforced, when they don't have enough staff to man the highways, let alone go looking for you, because you didn't show up and pay your fines.

You DO know why OR passed the law required proof of citizenship for a drivers lic. as well right???

Again, none of that changes that what Tony posted was correct. He posted the criteria required to be met in order to legally drive an automobile. In general, everyone gets cited and released.

I know you have a hardon for allowing illegals to vote Gomer, that's one of the ways Democrats can get votes . . . just like our Governor bought votes with this Executive Order.

Harder

You can't support that statement, can you?

Par for the course for ol' sharder.

**sharder8** · July 29th, 2012, 11:43 PM

You just don't have a clue, do you Gomer . . .

Maybe you're just book smart and street stupid.

Harder

**Gomer** · July 29th, 2012, 11:47 PM

Originally Posted by sharder8

You just don't have a clue, do you Gomer . . .

Maybe you're just book smart and street stupid.

Harder

So personal attacks now.

Some things never change.

**Epidemic** · July 30th, 2012, 08:44 AM

Originally Posted by Gomer

And while we're on the subject... During that time period, there was only 1 person killed with a firearm during a legal intervention for every 100 that were killed violently.

where do you get that statistic from?

the lowest estimate of defensive gun use is on the order of 100,000 DGU's annually

**Gomer** · July 30th, 2012, 09:24 AM

Originally Posted by Epidemic

where do you get that statistic from?

the lowest estimate of defensive gun use is on the order of 100,000 DGU's annually

That's from the CDC. It's not an estimate. It's bodies in the ground.

100x as many people are killed through firearm violence than are killed in firearm self-defense.