I'm Baaack! Marines place $22.5M order for the Colt .45 M1911

[Chuckiechan]

Sticking to their guns: Marines place $22.5M order for the Colt .45 M1911 | Fox News

I always thought 9mm's with ball ammo were a bit weak.

[Taxmancometh]

I always thought 9mm's with ball ammo were a bit weak.

Me too! it's about time they use all American guns!

[pickel]

My Series 80 is similar to this one as I used about $1000.00 worth of Wilson Combat parts and Pearl hand grips.

[Theophylact]

I'm sorry, Chuckiechan, but what exactly was your point?

[Whir]

Probably something to the effect of, the 1911 was the main semi-automatic sidearm issued to the US forces for a considerable amount of time, but at some point, they wanted something newer, lighter and with a larger magazine capacity. They switched to the 92F. The difference in stopping power between the 9mm and the .45ACP is quite a bit.

It's been long argued that the 1911 is a deadlier, more reliable service weapon than the 92F. And as far as I am aware, many many many marines carry their own sidearms using the venerable .45ACP round. It's a bit of heritage and sensibility in one swell foop.

That's just my impression of it though.

[Max_Confusion]

Nice pickel!

[pickel]

I'm sorry, Chuckiechan, but what exactly was your point?

BIGGER IS BETTER !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ask Sgt. Alvin York.

Sgt. Alvin York

On the morning of 8 October 1918, elements of the 328th Infantry, 82nd Division, United States Army, were pinned down by German machine-gun fire. Seventeen men, under the command of Sgt. Bernard Early, were ordered to out-flank the machine guns.

Shortly after they left their own lines, they came across a German officer and several soldiers having breakfast. Believing that they were surrounded, the Germans surrendered. However, before Early could detach a man to take the prisoners back through the lines, intensive machine gun fire swept the patrol. Eight American soldiers survived. Sgt. Early was killed. As the remaining non-com, Cpl. Alvin York took command of the patrol. While the remaining Americans covered their prisoners, trying at the same time to avoid enemy fire, York spotted the location of the German guns, about 30 yards away. In addition to his Enfield M1917 rifle, he also carried a Colt .45 automatic pistol. The German gunners peeked over the tops of their Maxim guns to avoid hitting their own men.

With the appearance of each face, framed in its “coal-scuttle” helmet, York’s Enfield spoke. One shot equaled one dead gunner. York was from the Tennessee mountains where firearms were used to put food on the table. Mountain folk were frugal, making each shot count.

Unnoticed by York, several Germans moved forward, locating York’s position. Out of sight, they counted the shots from York’s rifle, establishing the pattern of his shooting. They counted a series of 5 shots from his Enfield and rushed York to gain the advantage of the few extra seconds it took to reload the rifle.

As the Germans charged, they came into easy pistol range. York brought the .45 automatic into action, stopping the patrol in its tracks. He continued shooting and advancing, killing a total of 25 German soldiers and capturing 132 by himself. York was promoted to Sergeant and awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor.

[The Real Bingo]

I still prefer the 9mm. Maybe not in the current format, but the caliber is preferable, IMO. .45 ACP is not a NATO round, so availability can be a concern abroad; round capacity is reduced; and recoil is increased. If you want "stopping power" we should adopt the Five-seveN.

[Whir]

Because the SS190 that the FiveseveN and P90 use are only used in those two guns as is much more plentiful?

Which isn't to say I don't want a FiveseveN, because I really do.


Okay, I'm a little behind the times. I didn't realize other companies had started producing handguns that chamber the round. Still... I gotta believe .45ACP is more plentiful.

[sharder8]

While I love the Beretta 9mm, in a combat situation, you really can't beat the reliability and stopping power of the 1911. I carried the 1911 for over 11 of my 13 years in the Army.


Harder

[Chuckiechan]

I'm sorry, Chuckiechan, but what exactly was your point?

I'm not sure what you mean, but the military went to the 9mm which is an ok firearm, but for naked stopping power, a .45 does the deed much better.

Military ammo uses ball ammo. It's designed to punch a hole and not rip you to shreds like a hollow point. So the bigger the hole the better the stopping power.

The .45 was a proven winner and no real "good" reason was given for switching to the 9mm except it was new and had a higher magazine capacity.

Also, a hand gun almost never gets fired in battle. It's used to intimidate or guard something when a rifle isn't handy. The marines actually might use the thing in combat! It the other services, it's mainly officers carrying pistols.

[Epidemic]

how does magazine capacity compare to stopping power?

[Chuckiechan]

It was one of the features that led to the military adopting the 9mm. It has nothing to do with stopping power.

I'd like to see a statistic on how many bad guys are shot with a pistol...

[Epidemic]

I guess I would be interested in knowing why the 1911 is being chosen again.

what actually drove the military to say the 9mm is not meeting objectives. Did we have Bunch of dudes peppered 9mm holes continue on and cause problems.

I wonder if 9mm's lack of stopping power been a problem in recent conflicts or is this just a change in taste.

[de_day]

I do believe that magazine capacity was a big factor in the adoption of the M9, and the fact that 9mm is the NATO standard. According to my son, the M9 is not as easy to hold or shoot as the 1911 and a lot of women soldiers have trouble because of the grip size.

The soldiers that could get them carried sidearms and used them in close combat where appropriate.

To me it seems about the same as when they went from the tried and true 30.06 cartridge to the 5.56. It was lighter and the soldier could carry more with him for an operational load out. My son routinely carried 10 30 round P-mags in carriers and a couple extra of the GI issue mags in his pocket. Along with the mag pouches for his M240. He got down to 1 mag on a couple of occasions.

I like to see the re-adoption of the 1911 for military use. They are made in the USA, they are reliable and easy to maintain.

[Epidemic]

well as far as made in the usa... is the 1911 the only automatic made in the USA?

[tony_j15]

We don't outsource weapon production for the most part, Epi. Think about it. The M9 might be of foreign design, but it is manufactured right here in the USA.

[Whir]

I fail to see how that's relevant to the issue, Epi.


Re: stopping power, if your aim is good, a 9mm is just as deadly as a .45ACP. The thing is, in combat, you can't just rely on your good aim. And in that case, the .45ACP is a much better round. You hit someone in the arm with a 9mm, it hurts, he bleeds, he keeps fighting. You hit someone in the arm with a .45ACP and that arm is more than likely useless. Even more so with ball ammo since, as Chuckie said, the military uses ball ammo because it's more "humane". Instead of relying on expansion, the FMJ ammo has to rely on the size of the hole it creates. The bigger the hole, the faster blood pressure in the target drops. I'm sure we know what happens when your blood pressure falls past a certain point.

Too, comparing power, the 9x19mm produces about 570J of energy while the .45ACP produces 835J. For comparison, NATO's main battle rifle round, the 5.56x45mm, produces 1,767J.

Other factors that may have led to the military's adoption of the 92F (M9) is the relative size, weight and recoil of the weapon -- it's much easier to task and control.

And it's not the entire military going back to the M1911 -- it's not even the entire Marines. The M9 will remain the main service pistol of the US Armed Forces I suspect.


And one other thing, the military is not required to use FMJ (ball ammo) in Afghanistan as Afghanistan is not a signer of the Hague Convention. I don't know if they keep hollow points on hand for conflicts they can use them in, but I don't imagine individual troops don't load their weapons with it (if that's not against restrictions).

[Whir]

We don't outsource weapon production for the most part, Epi. Think about it. The M9 might be of foreign design, but it is manufactured right here in the USA.

As far as I am aware, all US military weapons must be manufactured in the US.

But that doesn't mean a foreign company can't get the contract as they just have to build a mfcg here to do it with.

[Chuckiechan]

Re: stopping power,

One of my sons is a prison guard. He says the cons are always bragging about and showing off bullet wounds.

He has yet to meet one who had been shot by a .45 and lived to brag about it.

Bottom line - if they want to pack a .45, then let them.