South African Police Murder Striking Workers

**tony_j15** · August 16th, 2012, 04:25 PM

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/17/wo...ng-miners.html

Don't worry. Apartheid is gone. This is only your average example of police abuse.

**pickel** · August 16th, 2012, 06:55 PM

Yeah, I saw that.

You know, the Law Enforcement mentality........

**tony_j15** · August 17th, 2012, 11:52 AM

Death toll has been changed from 18 to 30.

**Epidemic** · August 17th, 2012, 01:15 PM

I am confused. Did hundreds of people wielding machetes and sticks really charge police?

I am not saying the miners didn't have the right to assemble or anything like that, but, if you are a police officer and a crowd of hundreds of angry people "charge" your possition wielding what equates to swords, what would you do?

let them overtake your position and try to talk them down?

Please explain what is wrong with the police response?

**Mike** · August 17th, 2012, 02:59 PM

Uh. Besides the fact that the police in that region have used extreme force in the past, shooting into the crowd is a bit different than eliminating select threats. Six guns were found on 34 dead protestors ...

If tear gas, water cannon, stun grenades and rubber bullets aren't working, then there is a major systematic failure on the police side. It seems they were a bit too trigger happy and didn't have proper training to deal with a crowd like that.

**tony_j15** · August 17th, 2012, 03:04 PM

Besides the obvious question of what business did the police have to be there to begin with (protecting law and order isn't really a valid reason), the big question is why did they not engage with less-than-lethal weapons? This is South Africa, not some third-world country. Their police forces are well trained and well equipped. Instead, they turned their automatic weapons against their countrymen.

South African police open fire on striking Lonmin miners, 30 dead - YouTube

EDIT:Part of the reason for the police presence was they were erecting barbed wire and other barriers to corral the protesters.
One of the major issues here should be obvious. South Africa (supposedly post-apartheid) is owned and run by white men and white corporations. The native population tried to stand up and demand they be treated fairly, and in return 30 people were shot. Over what? Well, one guy simply says he wants to be paid a bit more than $500 a month to work a platinum mine (1450 an oz. BTW). Too much to ask? I don't think so. Do you?

EDIT2: I gotta say, one of the things that really galls me about people is that so many refuse to actually think and fall into the ridiculous line of reasoning that the ones in power are the ones who are in the right. Democracy doesn't function that way. Religion and totalitarian states encourage it, though. Not blaming anyone here specifically, but the direction of this thread made me think of it.

**Mike** · August 17th, 2012, 03:11 PM

Nothing like human target practice.

**tony_j15** · August 17th, 2012, 03:25 PM

It appears based on the latest press conference information according to the police that they did indeed intend to control the crowd (as to why this was needed still isn't clear, making police presence questionable other than as strong-arm bullies working for the mine) by using rubber bullets, water cannons, and stun grenades. I commend them for their initial LTL response, but still question why their was a need to control or cause dispersal of the crowd.
The death toll has been raised to 34, with 78 injured.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/18/wo...ng-miners.html

**Epidemic** · August 17th, 2012, 04:39 PM

Originally Posted by tony_j15

It appears based on the latest press conference information according to the police that they did indeed intend to control the crowd (as to why this was needed still isn't clear, making police presence questionable other than as strong-arm bullies working for the mine) by using rubber bullets, water cannons, and stun grenades. I commend them for their initial LTL response, but still question why their was a need to control or cause dispersal of the crowd.
The death toll has been raised to 34, with 78 injured.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/18/wo...ng-miners.html

That was all in the first story I read. Hence the question... People who automatically support a crowd of people wielding lethal weapons and automatically fault the government really galls me.

I support the crowds right to strike. But the second they start collecting weapons they become a threat. It show intent to do harm, probably a threat to scabs who are looking for work. If other strikes are any measure. Police doing their job erecting barbed wire to keep the crowd back where they belong is not an unreasonable expectation.

I don't know how much these laborers are worth with platnum at 1450 an ounce. Does one worker yield an ounce of platnum a day? Is it the machines that are key to the number of ounces per day and the worker could be anyone.

What is the average pay for manual labor in south africa?

I don't know if they are getting screwed. From here with what I know it sure seems like it. Does that give them the right to wield weapons and threaten scabs or the police? NO! Probably a pretty bad idea and when you attempt attack armed police with said weapons after non leathal alternative are exausted you should expect to meet with a hail of gunfire. Should those cops have just sacrificed themselves for the crowd? Two police officers were killed. Obviously there was a serious problem.

**tony_j15** · August 17th, 2012, 04:45 PM

It takes two sides to have a confrontation. I don't automatically fault governments. I merely fault murderers. Rather than back off and attempt negotiations or force dialogue between the workers and the mine owners, the police created a conflict. The situation seems avoidable from my POV.

Logic check: you state the workers having weapons is a problem. If American workers were striking, would you deny them their 2nd Amendment freedom?

**Epidemic** · August 17th, 2012, 08:40 PM

Originally Posted by tony_j15

It takes two sides to have a confrontation. I don't automatically fault governments. I merely fault murderers. Rather than back off and attempt negotiations or force dialogue between the workers and the mine owners, the police created a conflict. The situation seems avoidable from my POV.

Logic check: you state the workers having weapons is a problem. If American workers were striking, would you deny them their 2nd Amendment freedom?

If we rushed the police with weapons drawn I would expect no less.

As for the police overacting. I have not seen evidence of that yet. I also am not sure we can call the two police murdered just yet. Or the 30 demonstrators..

**Mike** · September 15th, 2012, 02:03 PM

Clashes after South Africa cops raid miners' hostels to seize weapons: full story here:

MARIKANA, South Africa -- South African police on Saturday fired tear gas and rubber bullets to disperse miners rallying in Marikana after raids on their hostels to seize arms, witnesses said.

About 500 police officers raided the hostels at Lonmin's Karee platinum mine near Marikana -- scene of the killing of 34 miners by police last month -- in the early morning and seized machetes, spears and other weapons, police spokesman Thulani Ngubane said

Saturday's incident was the latest in five weeks of labor unrest that has choked off platinum production in the world's top producer of the precious metal.

It broke out as Lonmin increased its pay offer to striking miners, although the revised figure was still short of the 12,500 rand ($1,500) that they demand. An earlier offer on Friday was rejected.