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  1. #1
    Precambrian Theophylact's Avatar
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    Richard Nixon: Traitor

    It's long been suspected, but now it's been proven: Nixon did his best to sabotage any agreement to end the Vietnam War.
    Richard M. Nixon always denied it: to David Frost, to historians and to Lyndon B. Johnson, who had the strongest suspicions and the most cause for outrage at his successor’s rumored treachery. To them all, Nixon insisted that he had not sabotaged Johnson’s 1968 peace initiative to bring the war in Vietnam to an early conclusion. “My God. I would never do anything to encourage” South Vietnam “not to come to the table,” Nixon told Johnson, in a conversation captured on the White House taping system.

    Now we know Nixon lied. A newfound cache of notes left by H. R. Haldeman, his closest aide, shows that Nixon directed his campaign’s efforts to scuttle the peace talks, which he feared could give his opponent, Vice President Hubert H. Humphrey, an edge in the 1968 election. On Oct. 22, 1968, he ordered Haldeman to “monkey wrench” the initiative.

    The 37th president has been enjoying a bit of a revival recently, as his achievements in foreign policy and the landmark domestic legislation he signed into law draw favorable comparisons to the presidents (and president-elect) that followed. A new, $15 million face-lift at the Nixon presidential library, while not burying the Watergate scandals, spotlights his considerable record of accomplishments.

    Haldeman’s notes return us to the dark side. Amid the reappraisals, we must now weigh apparently criminal behavior that, given the human lives at stake and the decade of carnage that followed in Southeast Asia, may be more reprehensible than anything Nixon did in Watergate.
    Read the whole thing.

    At least Trump's private diplomacy with Russia to destroy Clinton hasn't cost any American lives. Yet.
    If I went back in time I wouldn't kill Hitler, I would save Rosa Luxembourg.

  2. #2
    Tech IMO Bug Finder pickel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theophylact View Post

    At least Trump's private diplomacy with Russia to destroy Clinton hasn't cost any American lives. Yet.
    Somebody HAD to Destroy Crooked Hillary, might as well be Trump...IF that be the case...

    There's no telling how many lives were DESTROYED by the Clintons.

    I know of , at least, FOUR...
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOtab0BKOGY
    The Nation which forgets it's defenders will itself be forgotten
    You cannot make peace with dictators. You have to destroy them–wipe them out!

  3. #3
    Precambrian Theophylact's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pickel View Post
    Somebody HAD to Destroy Crooked Hillary, might as well be Trump...IF that be the case...

    There's no telling how many lives were DESTROYED by the Clintons.

    I know of , at least, FOUR...
    Name them. And I can say in advance that you're full of crap.
    If I went back in time I wouldn't kill Hitler, I would save Rosa Luxembourg.

  4. #4
    Tech IMO Bug Finder pickel's Avatar
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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOtab0BKOGY
    The Nation which forgets it's defenders will itself be forgotten
    You cannot make peace with dictators. You have to destroy them–wipe them out!

  5. #5
    Senior Member Mojo Risin''s Avatar
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    Actually, I felt Hillary was far more egregious than "Tricky Dick" for her having conducting national security business on a private email server, which in this day of technology and foreign hackers compromises our sovereignty, security and our citizens. Even when I was classified in Undersea Warfare I knew how to handle classified information. Hillary as Sec'y of State surely had to know, or else she was either clearly incompetent or corrupt. Mind you, I'm no fan of Nixon, however, compared to Nixon, he should get a slap on the wrist and Hillary should be on trial. I only wish I would be above ground when the truth comes out about Barry and his sealed documents when the self proclaimed "Most Transparent" President's skeletons lurking in his closet are revealed.
    Last edited by Mojo Risin'; January 2nd, 2017 at 03:25 AM.
    Mojo
    I don't always exercise, but when I do it's my Constitutional right to bear arms.

  6. #6
    Prof. of DooGlian Studies MegalosSkylaki's Avatar
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    My recollection is that Hubert Humphrey supported continuing the war in Vietnam which is why Eugene McCarthy and the "clean Genes" were walking the snows of New Hampshire seeking the candidacy. There were also suspicions that McCarthy was a stalking horse for Robert Kennedy who was also planning to make a run at it and was waiting to see how well McCarthy would do. There were numerous "peacenik" demonstrations" in Chicago suppressed by Daley's police that harmed the Democrats that year.

    Nixon's "red scare" politics long pre-dated his White House years and the revisionism that attends him may be due to not fitting in to conventional "Liberal-Conservative" dichotomies. In fact, he was a radical who made many changes including changes to the Bretton Woods system using a gold-standard and the opening to Red China which endures to this day.

    Recall the Constitutional definition of Treason is giving aid and comfort to the enemy during a time of war as witnessed by two persons. It is a matter of controversy whether the Bay of Tonkin resolution constituted a Declaration of War.
    Last edited by MegalosSkylaki; January 2nd, 2017 at 02:37 PM.

  7. #7
    Precambrian Theophylact's Avatar
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    Yeah, yeah, I know the actual definition of treason. "Violating the Logan Act" doesn't have the same cachet, though, perhaps because nobody's ever been prosecuted for it.

    Hubert Humphrey lost the election because of three things: LBJ wouldn't allow his Vice-President to take an anti-war position that reflected badly on him, thus costing HHH a lot of liberal Democrats; Wallace was a third-party candidate who drained away a lot of Southern Democratic votes; and Nixon sabotaged any effort to end the war before the election.
    If I went back in time I wouldn't kill Hitler, I would save Rosa Luxembourg.

  8. #8
    Tech IMO Bug Finder pickel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theophylact View Post
    Yeah, yeah, I know the actual definition of treason. "Violating the Logan Act" doesn't have the same cachet, though, perhaps because nobody's ever been prosecuted for it.

    Hubert Humphrey lost the election because of three things: LBJ wouldn't allow his Vice-President to take an anti-war position that reflected badly on him, thus costing HHH a lot of liberal Democrats; Wallace was a third-party candidate who drained away a lot of Southern Democratic votes; and Nixon sabotaged any effort to end the war before the election.
    Many Good Men died and came back less of a Man because these POS politicians they had the power to implement their BS policies.

    I'll be looking them ,ALL, whenever get into HELL...
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOtab0BKOGY
    The Nation which forgets it's defenders will itself be forgotten
    You cannot make peace with dictators. You have to destroy them–wipe them out!

  9. #9
    Precambrian Theophylact's Avatar
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    20,000 American service members died between the 1968 election and the end of the Vietnam War. Richard Nixon killed at least some of them.
    If I went back in time I wouldn't kill Hitler, I would save Rosa Luxembourg.

  10. #10
    Prof. of DooGlian Studies MegalosSkylaki's Avatar
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    Too Little Too Late

    As the NY Times article dithers about, the "evidence" is rather speculative to warrant a charge of Treason or whatever serious charge other than campaign politics in the daze of the Vietnam War.

    The real evil was to conduct a war that they knew they could not win and in this case most of the evidence tells against Johnson, the most telling of which was his refusal to run for re-election.

    Why did he refuse? Probably because he knew the war was lost and didn't want his legacy to be the first President to be considered to have lost a War.
    Why didn't he pull out rather than handing the war over to Humphrey ? Probably because if HH had fought on it would look like Humphrey and not Johnson had lost the War. Pretty cynical stuff.

    My guess is that Nixon in his narcissism believed until later than the war was winnable.

    The problem with Nixon --other than his misplaced political leanings and his unethical political opportunism which Johnson matched--was and I had a sense of this was a mental sense on his part of persecution and abuse that colored his thinking. They tried to lay mental problems on Goldwater but I always thought there was a strange quirk in Nixon's mental bearings that ultimately brought him down.

    Back in those days the news media were more independent and Trump has the advantage that 80 +% of the media are controled by Fortune 500 -type companies who won't make waves now that he's been elected. Nixon had problems that maybe Trump can avoid.


    Whether it changed the course of history remains open to debate, but at the very least it encapsulated an almost-anything-goes approach that characterized the nation’s politics in that era.

    As the Republican candidate in 1968, Nixon was convinced that Johnson, a Democrat who decided not to seek re-election, was deliberately trying to sabotage his campaign with a politically motivated peace effort meant mainly to boost the candidacy of his vice president, Hubert H. Humphrey. His suspicions were understandable, and at least one of Johnson’s aides later acknowledged that they were anxious to make progress before the election to help Mr. Humphrey.

    Through much of the campaign, the Nixon team maintained a secret channel to the South Vietnamese through Anna Chennault, widow of Claire Lee Chennault, leader of the Flying Tigers in China during World War II. Mrs. Chennault had become a prominent Republican fund-raiser and Washington hostess.


    Nixon met with Mrs. Chennault and the South Vietnamese ambassador earlier in the year to make clear that she was the campaign’s “sole representative” to the Saigon government. But whether he knew what came later has always been uncertain. She was the conduit for urging the South Vietnamese to resist Johnson’s entreaties to join the Paris talks and wait for a better deal under Nixon. At one point, she told the ambassador she had a message from “her boss”: “Hold on, we are gonna win.”

    Learning of this through wiretaps and surveillance, Johnson was livid. He ordered more bugs and privately groused that Nixon’s behavior amounted to “treason.” But lacking hard evidence that Nixon was directly involved, Johnson opted not to go public.


    The notes Mr. Farrell found come from a phone call on Oct. 22, 1968, as Johnson prepared to order a pause in the bombing to encourage peace talks in Paris. Scribbling down what Nixon was telling him, Mr. Haldeman wrote, “Keep Anna Chennault working on SVN,” or South Vietnam.
    A little later, he wrote that Nixon wanted Senator Everett Dirksen, a Republican from Illinois, to call the president and denounce the planned bombing pause. “Any other way to monkey wrench it?” Mr. Haldeman wrote. “Anything RN can do.”

    [EDIT]

    Other Nixon scholars called Mr. Farrell’s discovery a breakthrough. Robert Dallek, an author of books on Nixon and Johnson, said the notes “seem to confirm suspicions” of Nixon’s involvement in violation of federal law. Evan Thomas, the author of “Being Nixon,” said Mr. Farrell had “nailed down what has been talked about for a long time.”

    [EDIT]

    Still, as tantalizing as they are, the notes do not reveal what, if anything, Mr. Haldeman actually did with the instruction, and it is unclear that the South Vietnamese needed to be told to resist joining peace talks that they considered disadvantageous already.

    Moreover, it cannot be said definitively whether a peace deal could have been reached without Nixon’s intervention or that it would have helped Mr. Humphrey. William P. Bundy, a foreign affairs adviser to Johnson and John F. Kennedy who was highly critical of Nixon, nonetheless concluded that prospects for the peace deal were slim anyway, so “probably no great chance was lost.”


    Nixon Tried to Spoil Johnson
    FIRST TEN YEARS ANNIVERSARY HONOR ROLL
    this April 18th, 2014 and will be Officially Celebrated That Day! SEE http://www.techimo.com/forum/imo-com...ml#post1070600

  11. #11
    Tech IMO Bug Finder pickel's Avatar
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    Moreover, it cannot be said definitively whether a peace deal could have been reached without Nixon’s intervention or that it would have helped Mr. Humphrey. William P. Bundy, a foreign affairs adviser to Johnson and John F. Kennedy who was highly critical of Nixon, nonetheless concluded that prospects for the peace deal were slim anyway, so “probably no great chance was lost.”
    And many child will never feel the warm embrace or tender kiss of a Grand Father whose remains lay in a jungle of Cambodia or at the bottom of a river in Viet Nam ....
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOtab0BKOGY
    The Nation which forgets it's defenders will itself be forgotten
    You cannot make peace with dictators. You have to destroy them–wipe them out!

  12. #12
    AGW Trained Seal tony_j15's Avatar
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    This isn't really new. The entire war was begun on the lie of the Gulf of Tonkin incident, which was a complete farce. The peace process was scuttled multiple times by the US directly or at its behest, including the assassination of Vietnam's Prime Minister Ngo Dinh Diem (who we wanted in the first place to undermine the Geneva Accords). Chomsky fully explores this in Manufacturing Consent. Over four million people died.
    Meanwhile, pickel thinks Clinton is worse because of four deaths that were not her fault.

  13. #13
    Tech IMO Bug Finder pickel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tony_j15 View Post
    .
    Meanwhile, pickel thinks Clinton is worse because of four deaths that were not her fault.
    Hillary Clinton is just another "Has Been" political figure. So be it.

    She got what she deserved and gave us Da Donald.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ftYho4K3FQ
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOtab0BKOGY
    The Nation which forgets it's defenders will itself be forgotten
    You cannot make peace with dictators. You have to destroy them–wipe them out!

  14. #14
    Precambrian Theophylact's Avatar
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    If I went back in time I wouldn't kill Hitler, I would save Rosa Luxembourg.

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