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  1. #1
    MR Meek and Mild Epidemic's Avatar
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    Does the Constitution protect non citizens?

    I often hear complaints of civil liberties these days. I am just wondering if the words of the constitution actually say that they apply to non citizens.

    Excluding torture and unjust imprisonment...

    Do you and should you have the same freedom of movement speech, attorney as americans according to the constitution?

    If America requests that a non citizen leave the country because we do not like their politics is it legal to expel them? In clear verbage not liberal or conservative court rulings.

  2. #2
    shahani
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    No, the Constitution applies only for domestic peeps.

    Any non-citizen peep can be expelled. A citizen peep if found traitor can be expelled to Jupiter. Unless Iraq agrees to take him.

  3. #3
    Si vis pacem, para bellum daveleau's Avatar
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    to non-citizens outside the US? No. It would be nice if every country had a basis for rights that the Bill of Rights has, but that is a pipe dream.

    To non-citizens inside the US? Yes. Note that if they are "invaders" their rights of Habeus Corpus can be removed.

    As per your last question, I have never really heard of this happening. Our freedom of speech applies to everyone on US soil, as is seen in us not expelling foreign dignitaries whose policies we do not agree with. For instance, you remember that Saudi Prince that wanted to give NYC millions of $$s after 9/11, but began talking of how the US was to blame for 9/11. Guliani refused to accept his money after his speech, but the prince was not expelled from the nation.

  4. #4
    MR Meek and Mild Epidemic's Avatar
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    Dave I am not so much talking about practice, rather I am more interested in law.

    I do not know if the constitution (in words) protects the US soil or US citizens.

  5. #5
    Ultimate Member cyphen's Avatar
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    I'm certain we could have had we chosen to, though. Unless you are a US citizen - even if you're on US soil, you are not constitutionally protected. Which only makes sense - you can't have it both ways - either you become a US citizen and submit that these rules apply to everybody, or you don't get the freedoms that go along. Simple as that.
    Usually, terrible things that are done with the excuse that progress requires them are not really progress, but just terrible things.

  6. #6
    Ultimate Member willy_ph's Avatar
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    Non US citizens are guarenteed the same protections inherent in the Constitution as those who are foreigners. This is the result of the fact that the Constitution uses the word "persons" instead of "citizens".
    The difficulty is to try and teach the multitude that something can be true and untrue at the same time. -- Arthur Schopenhauer

  7. #7
    Ultimate Member willy_ph's Avatar
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    As well the Fourteenth Amendment states that the government may not, "deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the law." Protection being the guarentees enshrined in the Constitution.
    The difficulty is to try and teach the multitude that something can be true and untrue at the same time. -- Arthur Schopenhauer

  8. #8
    MR Meek and Mild Epidemic's Avatar
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    Dam typo's

  9. #9
    Ultimate Member willy_ph's Avatar
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    From the American Civil Liberties Union:

    THE RIGHTS OF IMMIGRANTS
    In decisions spanning more than a century, the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that the Constitution's guarantees apply to every person within U.S. borders, including "aliens whose presence in this country is unlawful." On the other hand, the Court has said that when the federal government uses its broad powers to supervise immigration into this country, it can exercise those powers in ways that discriminate on the basis of "alienage." In other words, the government has the power to decide who to let into the country and under what circumstances. But once here, even undocumented immigrants have the right to freedom of speech and religion, the right to be treated fairly, the right to privacy, and the other fundamental rights U.S. citizens enjoy.

    Since immigrants don't have the right to enter the U.S., those who are not here legally are subject to deportation. The Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS) has the authority to question "any person believed to be an alien as to his right to be in the United States." But in a 1903 case called Yamataya v. Fisher, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that the INS could not deport someone without a hearing that meets constitutional due process standards. Since then, procedural rights for undocumented immigrants have evolved so that today, in spite of Congress' attempts to curtail these rights, most people facing deportation are entitled to:

    a hearing before an immigration judge and review, in most cases, by a federal court;
    representation by a lawyer (but not at government expense);
    reasonable notice of charges, and of a hearing's time and place;
    a reasonable opportunity to examine the evidence and the government's witnesses;
    competent interpretation for non-English speaking immigrants, and
    clear and convincing proof that the government's grounds for deportation are valid.

    http://www.aclu.org/ImmigrantsRights...m?ID=9361&c=22
    The difficulty is to try and teach the multitude that something can be true and untrue at the same time. -- Arthur Schopenhauer

  10. #10
    MR Meek and Mild Epidemic's Avatar
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    Are those court cases backed up by the constitution or legislating from the bench.

  11. #11
    shahani
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    Originally posted by shahani
    No, the Constitution applies only for domestic peeps.

    Any non-citizen peep can be expelled. A citizen peep if found traitor can be expelled to Jupiter. Unless Iraq agrees to take him.
    What I said above holds.

    Domestic peeps=any peep living domestically - meaning within the borders of the 50 United States.

  12. #12
    Ultimate Member willy_ph's Avatar
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    I imagine that the court read into the Constitution that it applies to all those who are residing within the borders of the United States.

    So in response to your question Epi, the decisions would have been backed by the Constitution. The courts did not partake in judicial activism, but rather revealed the deeper meaning inherent within the Constitution.
    The difficulty is to try and teach the multitude that something can be true and untrue at the same time. -- Arthur Schopenhauer

  13. #13
    MR Meek and Mild Epidemic's Avatar
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    heh that is the definition of judicial activism.

  14. #14
    Ultimate Member JacobM5727's Avatar
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    it should not apply to non citizens
    --Jacob--

  15. #15
    shahani
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    Tell us why Jacob?

  16. #16
    Ultimate Member JacobM5727's Avatar
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    i will let it tell you itself

    We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
    bolding by me of course
    Last edited by JacobM5727; March 5th, 2003 at 03:28 PM.
    --Jacob--

  17. #17
    shahani
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    Excellent.

    Looks like epidemic overlooked the obvious.

  18. #18
    OAP Theophylact's Avatar
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    As an old Government man, I can tell you that it's the "reg text" that counts, not the preamble. But JacobM5727, "We the People" and the "United States" are not isomorphic; that's why there's an "of" between them. "Domestic" means merely "within our borders", not "for US citizens". And the phrase "ourselves and our posterity" does not necessarily require the additional word "alone".

  19. #19
    MR Meek and Mild Epidemic's Avatar
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    Interesting stuff there jacob.

    Of course there are a few more words in the constitution which could supercede that and provide equal protection to all.

  20. #20
    Ultimate Member JacobM5727's Avatar
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    well for example, the people of canada would not be people of the united states
    politics arent my thing anyway
    --Jacob--

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