My First Desktop

[dredckaw]

Hey Everyone,

My 2006 Mac Book Pro is on it's last legs and so it is time for me to get a new computer. Though I love many things about apple products, this time I am going to shift back into the world of Windows.

I am a student who enjoys gaming and will use his computer for entertainment but also school work.

I don't want to be paying much more than 1000 for the desktop though 100 or a bit over would not be the end of the world.

Now to talk in a slightly more organized fashion, as I said, I would like to get a gaming computer, I do not have to run Metro on max settings but I would like be able to run everything decently.

I am very confused about what to buy because I seem to find the perfect computer and then after a quick google search, there is always something wrong with it.

Here are a few questions that I have been wondering about in my exploration:

1. Intel or AMD? Most people seem to tell me to go intel all the way?

2. How does processor speed, ram and dedicated videocard memory work together to create good performance. Which are most important? Which will help me in what ways? What things should I look for?

3. Cooling seems to be a big deal and I'm never sure if the computers im looking at are good in that respect. Explain?

At the moment, I am looking at a few Tiger Direct PCs on the Canada website:

Buy the CybertronPC Core i5 500GB HDD Gaming PC at TigerDirect.ca

Buy the CybertronPC Core i3 16GB DDR3 Gaming PC at TigerDirect.ca

Buy the CyberPower Core i5 2TB HDD Gaming PC at TigerDirect.ca

Would you be able to look at them and maybe tell me if there are any pros or cons to them and how good their graphics cards are?

Finally, I have heard from some that Cyberpower desktops can be good. Also I have heard that their parts may be a bit less customizable when you want to upgrade in the futur. Any thought?

Long post, possibly annoying questions,

Thanks,

-dred

[ShyguyXPC]

suggestion...

Ditch the barebone or bundled kits like those, their graphics options are never any good, and you can get better stuff for your dollar and build yourself rather than get everything in one bundle like those.


none of those systems are good for gaming given their price range.

The best one of the bunch is the i3 with the Radeon 6670, but this is a $65-80 card, and not worth it for a $900+ system.


Its CPU is lesser, but the video card is better.

But NO gaming system for $900-1000 should be running a Sub $100 GPU.

Hell, this one

Buy the CyberPower Core i5 2TB HDD Gaming PC at TigerDirect.ca

has a $50 or less Video card in it, IT IS NOT even a gaming rig by that standard.

This one for $860+ Doesn't even have a gaming card, it uses the Intel Graphics on the CPU:

Buy the CybertronPC Core i5 500GB HDD Gaming PC at TigerDirect.ca




your better off custom Building and getting more for your money.

As to which to go for, I agree Intel is the best choice right now, AMD really offers nothing worth your money at the moment.

as to which is important between RAM, CPU and GPU.

RAM is last of the 3, as long as you are running 4GB RAM, your fine, anything more is really wasted for Gaming, but may come in handy for Multitasking and such.



GPU is always more important for gaming. CPU is just as important, but for every day tasks and basic usage, even a low end $50 Celeron based on the same Intel CPU's that are out now is sufficient for those tasks.

Some games are more CPU dependent, in which case CPU power is more important, most games are GPU dependent, so GPU is more important.

Trick is to pair up a good CPU with the GPU.

if the CPU is too low end, it can bottleneck or choke the GPU's optimal performance, in which case, depending on how much bottleneck there is, you could be paying $50-100+ more for a card than you are getting due to the CPU.

basically if your running most Intel Core i5 or i7 Quad cores, you can toss in the most powerful Single cards out there and not have a bottleneck.

if for example you did that with say the $50 celeron, you'd be heavily choking the cards.


For a $1000 Budget range, it should be feasible to get a Core i5 Quad core, 8GB RAM, a good $200-300 Range GPU, and a Motherboard with plenty of upgrade and expansion options, including SLI or CrossfireX capability to use multiple Video cards in the system.


Using NCIX (canada's version of Newegg, which is native to Canada, where as Newegg and Tigerdirect are both Native to US).

HDD: Western Digital Caviar Black 1TB SATA3 6GB/S 7200RPM 64MB Cache 3.5IN Dual Proc Hard Drive OEM - Western Digital WD - WD1002FAEX

OS: Microsoft Windows 7 Home Premium Edition 64BIT SP1 DVD OEM - Microsoft - GFC-02050

CPU: Intel Core i5 3550 Quad Core Processor LGA1155 3.3GHZ Ivy Bridge 6MB Retail - Intel - BX80637I53550

Not top of the line, but should be very capable.


Mobo: Biostar TZ77A Z77 S1155 4DDR3 2600(OC) HDMI+DVI+VGA 2PCI 2PCIE 2PCIEX16 2USB3.0 Motherboard ATX - BIOSTAR - TZ77A

Doesn't support SLI, but does support AMD CrossfireX, however due to the 2nd PCIe x16 slot only having an x4 bandwidth slot, its not really intended for the level of video card selected for this build, but you can still use it for a 2nd card and gain some performance increase from it still.



RAM: G.SKILL F3-12800CL9D-4GBRL Ripjaws PC3-12800 4GB 2X2GB DDR3-1600 CL9-9-9-24 Core i5 1.5V Memory Kit - G.Skill - F3-12800CL9D-4GBRL

Its only 4GB, but had to make some cuts somewhere so as to not go too far over the $1000 budget, still 4GB is good to start with, and its rated at up to 1600MHz, so you have some Overclocking headroom with the RAM if you wanted to try that down the road.


DVD Drive: ASUS DRW-24B1ST 24X SATA DVD Writer OEM Black - ASUS - DRW-24B1ST Bulk

was on special.


Video card: MSI Radeon HD 7850 Twin Frozr III 860MHZ 2GB 4.8GHZ GDDR5 DVI HDMI 2x MINI-DP PCI-E Video Card - MSI/MicroStar - R7850 Twin Frozr 2GD5

Had to make some cuts somewhere, but this is still a very capable mid range card.


Power Supply: Corsair Builder Series CMPSU-500CXV2 500W ATX Power Supply Active PFC 120MM Fan *3 Year Wrty* - Corsair - CMPSU-500CXV2

Top quality brand, 500W is more than enough to run this system as listed.



Case: Corsair Carbide Series 300R Black Gaming Case ATX 3X5.25 4X3.5 Front USB Audio No PSU - Corsair - CC-9011014-WW

bit large, but was on special, and free shipping which is a life saver, since shipping for cases can be quite expensive.

Includes a Free Corsair 120mm Case fan (these normally sell for about $20-30 in the US here)

Also has a deal with a Noctua CPU Cooler, for $40, which normally is quite a bit more.

CPU Cooler: Noctua NH-D14 LGA1155/1156/1366/AM3 I7/I5/PHENOM Heatpipe Cooler W/ NF-P14 140MM & NF-P12 120MM Fan - Noctua - NH-D14

Noctua cooler I mentioned, keep in mind this cooler is EXTREMELY Large, and will take up a large portion of the interior of the case, it may even block access to installing the RAM so if you got it, just remember to install the RAM in the motherboard before mounting the Cooler to the CPU/Board.

Total before shipping: $1,006.44

has everything but a Keyboard, Mouse, Speakers/Headset and Monitor.

Would have to make some major cuts in the build to add those additional parts.

Would definitely need to drop down to An Intel Dual core (or a lower end AMD Quad core), budget range Motherboard (with no CPU overclocking, no Multi GPU capability, and limited expansion slots, RAM slots, etc), smaller case, as well as to fit a monitor and other parts in.

[dredckaw]

I have thought about building my own desktop before and though it does not seem impossible due to friends knowing a bit about it and my access to the all knowing internet, I am not so sure about taking the risk and the time to build the computer.

Do you or anyone else not know of any other stores where I could buy a decent gaming computer for a fair price?

I am not saying I do not want to build the desktop but I would like to try as hard as I can to find something to buy first due to not having the time nor the expertise to build one myself.

[stroyal]

Most of us would say the risk is in buying a pre-built.

You have a warranty in both cases.

If you get an XFX video card, they are warrantied for life. GSkill memory also.
You won't find a pre-built with anything close.

If you think you can find one, just use Shyguys list.
You can't go wrong with his advice.
If you stick around, you will see that for your self, if it isn't already apparent.


I have a list for my next build @979.90, before shipping, and rebates, but it is very similar to Shyguys build suggestion.

I have an XFX 7850, but would be getting the MSI 7850 Shyguy suggested, if it weren't for my monitor situation. (2 monitors, with D-SUB connection)

It is impossible to get exactly what you want in a prebuild, without paying for stuff you don't need.

Any prebuild with a 7850, I would guess, would be more than $1000.

I'd buy a prebuilt from New Egg Before Tiger. But I wouldn't.
I've only bought one in my life, and that was over 25 years ago.
There just too easy to build, and 'Im no rocket scientist, just an old Millwright, and I know much dumber people than me, that build their own.

If you can program a computer, that is the hard part, if you can call that hard.


Edit
Oh, almost any prebuild will have an unacceptable power supply.
The most important part of the computer.

[ShyguyXPC]

Your a gamer, priorities for us dictate to get as much CPU and gpu power and performance as we can within our budgets.

Going custom build is the only sure fire way to do that.

Besides, time wise more time is being taken posting online about what to get than how long it takes to build the pc.

Which can take as little as a half hour to a few hours to build.

[dredckaw]

Got confermation from some friends saying it was a good build.

Was wondering what you meant with the problems with the motherboard?

Probably getting it tonight, will message you if I have problems with building?

Thanks,

(may also change up to 8 gigs of ram rather then 4)

[stroyal]

This
"Doesn't support SLI, but does support AMD CrossfireX, however due to the 2nd PCIe x16 slot only having an x4 bandwidth slot, its not really intended for the level of video card selected for this build, but you can still use it for a 2nd card and gain some performance increase from it still."

I hate to speak for Shyguy, but it sounds like you are in a hurry.


He is just saying, the board will only support Crossfire, AMDs multiple GPU setup.

BUT because the second PCI-e X16 slot is only 4X electrically, it would be a waste to put a second 7850, in that slot.
But you could.
I think you can use a lessor card of the same family, for the second card, and gain some benefit.

If you want to use 2 -7850 to there full potential, you need a more expensive board, with 2 PCI-e 16X slots, that both operate at 16X electrically.


There is no drawback, for a single card.

[stroyal]

I totally understand you getting 8 gig of RAM,
I only need 4gig also, but am going with 8 gig anyway.

I think it is a guy thing.
More power.

Edit
RAM is predicted to go up in the next few months, if you want an excuse.

[ShyguyXPC]

This
"Doesn't support SLI, but does support AMD CrossfireX, however due to the 2nd PCIe x16 slot only having an x4 bandwidth slot, its not really intended for the level of video card selected for this build, but you can still use it for a 2nd card and gain some performance increase from it still."

I hate to speak for Shyguy, but it sounds like you are in a hurry.


He is just saying, the board will only support Crossfire, AMDs multiple GPU setup.

BUT because the second PCI-e X16 slot is only 4X electrically, it would be a waste to put a second 7850, in that slot.
But you could.
I think you can use a lessor card of the same family, for the second card, and gain some benefit.

If you want to use 2 -7850 to there full potential, you need a more expensive board, with 2 PCI-e 16X slots, that both operate at 16X electrically.


There is no drawback, for a single card.

7850 is the lowest of the 7800 family, so it's the only option.

But even x8 bandwidth would be fine for those cards.

I totally understand you getting 8 gig of RAM,
I only need 4gig also, but am going with 8 gig anyway.

I think it is a guy thing.
More power.

Edit
RAM is predicted to go up in the next few months, if you want an excuse.

I haven't seen anything about that yet, but with DDR4 out next year I suspect it will be a year or so before DDR3 pricing goes up too much.

[stroyal]

Wasn't sure if the 7700 were the same.
I figured you could run cleanup for me.

Tech News Today, had the RAM story a few days ago.

Because the excess of chips from the last few years is almost gone, and no new production has been started at the same time, as well as an increase in sales, the industry is predicting a slight rise in prices.

[stroyal]

Oops, it was This Week in Computer Hardware, for what it is worth.

[dredckaw]

You guys are are great! Thanks for helping me out.

Though I am not an idiot (maybe) , what you are saying, is that if I plan to have more than one video card, it wont make much of a difference? I am not planning to run more than one video card I don't think.

Just want to be able to video edit and game on decent setting with a good fps.

On that website it gives you an option to pay like 50-75 more dollars for them to assemble, install the os and update the drivers for you. That also includes a test run and things to make sure it works fine on top of a year warranty.

Anyone tried this before? Heard anything about it? Is it maybe a good idea for me?

Thanks again,

-dred

[ShyguyXPC]

Well, that settles it, picking up some more RAM while I can then, not too much though, as I'm sure I'll be jumping on DDR4 and the next Intel Platform next year possibly.

But pick up some decent 4GB Single sticks, and a 2nd 6GB or even 12GB Triple channel kit for the main rig.

Maybe with the lack of DDR3 chips, and price increases, once DDR4 comes around, maybe prices won't be so eye popping as it was when DDR3 came around, and Intels Socket 1366 and 1st i7's were out.




But yeah, with the Radeons, you can run any and all 7700's in Crossfire, or any and all 7800's, and so on, since the 7850 is the lowest of the 2 7800's out, that about narrows things down.


with Nvidia (for the new member), for SLI, the GPU's have to be exactly the same, but can be different clock speeds and memory size, though if you mix them, both will default to slowest's speeds, and lowest memory size.



Some Nvidia cards can be SLI'd despite being different, for example a GTX 465 which can be modified into a GTX 470, can be run in SLI with a 470.



as to the motherboard, the x4 bandwidth x16 slot would be fine for the 7700's, but the 7850 and higher might be a bit choked by the slots bandwidth, if it was an "x8" x16 slot, it would be fine.

Here's the catch, the motherboard is a Z77 chipset, and supports "Ivy Bridge" Intel's which introduce PCI Express 3.0. if that 2nd PCIe x16 slot were a PCIe 3.0 slot, then the x4 bandwidth would be fine, since it'd be the same as an x8 slot for 2.0 spec (3.0 is twice 2.0's bandwidth), but this boards 2nd slot is 2.0 spec only and thus limited to x4.

So when looking at boards, have to keep an eye out on several things like this.

[dredckaw]

So, if I get the 7850, as you suggest in the build, as long as I get just one, there will be no problem with the mother board?

If not, should I be changing motherboards? Any ideas if so?

Also, in the futur, maybe a few years, if I want to switch motherboards as to use mulitple gpus, will it be hard to find one thats right for me / switch them out?

[stroyal]

Yes for one card, there is no drawback.

2 years is an eternity, in computers. If I could predict that for sure, I'd be famous.
Intels urgency for new tech, isn't what it use to be, when AMD gave it competition, on the high end.


But Z77 and ivy bridge just came out, so even if Intel changes sockets in a year or 2, 1155 boards should still be readily available.
Probably even new.

You can always find older boards, on e-Bay

A better choice may be a new single card at that point though.

Even today, I think you can buy a single card, that is better than 2 7850s.

[ShyguyXPC]

I can tell you in ONE years time, the current Motherboard/CPU platform will be obsolete and the new Intel Platform will be out, or at least what I have been reading lately.

So if you went to switch to Dual GPU's at that time, you'd need a new Mobo, CPU and Video cards, with in 2 years time, the 7800's will be ultra cheap if you can even find them, and new cards in its price range will easily be double the performance of what they are now.


Agreed, at that point in time, keeping your current board and CPU in this list, and going with a single better card at that time down the road would be the best solution.

(and this way it doesn't need to be only a Radeon card, it can be a Geforce or whatever, since no SLI support on the motherboard, but just because it has no SLI doesn't mean you can't use Geforce cards, you can, just can't run 2 cards in SLI mode is all. You could even buy a Dual GPU Card, which cost nearly what your budget is, but could be possible, since these cards run CrossfireX or SLI on the card it self)

[dredckaw]

Still being in high school, some of my family who has no computer experience is worried about me buying a computer as parts to build it.

They told me to check out the same build on Dell Canada and of course I explained that they are incomparable.

Would you be able to give me a few cons to for example a dell desktop vs the one I wish to build?

Also, the dells offer a 2gb 7700, how much worse is that vs the 7850?

I am still planning to follow your advice, I was just hoping for a counter argument to back up your advice so I can convince potential investors in this expensive deal that it is a good one. :P

[ShyguyXPC]

Radeon 7700 series is half the performance of the 7800's.

Its considered a low end mid range or upper Budget range series card.


Simply put, you can not get a prebuilt system with these specs for your budget range.

I understand their concerns with the system being built by hand from parts, but their worries are unfounded and they themselves, as you even stated, have no computer experience, so they have no legitimate reasons to worry or be concerned.

We went through this with another new member months ago, his parents were concerned about him building vs just buying.


A factory built PC is made by hand, if they didn't know, its on an assembly line, but still made by hand.

How do they think those people learned? From personal experience.


Users who build their own PC's have a better understanding and know how on upgrades, repairs, and other issues that arise, than those who just buy one off the shelf.


The Dell's are ok, but for gaming uses, its almost always recommended to build yourself.

Or you could be a stripped down off the shelf system with certain specs, and buy a new Power supply and Video card to go in it.

but if you do that, why not just build from scratch with a far superior list of parts available to choose from, than the limited hardware set that Dell or other companies use.

[dredckaw]

Perfect, thats exactly what I was looking for. Will post again when deal goes through or more questions need answering.

Your amazing!

[stroyal]

I wish he would post a link to that post, as I can't find it.

It started with the father, who knew a little, being adamant on a prebuild, and ended with both of them extremely happy with the build that Shyguy, led them through.

I remember commenting on how patient he was, with their doubting his advise.

It was just another case of them not knowing who they were dealing with.

Edit
Don't forget some of the parts are lifetime warranty.
All the other parts are warranty, at least as long as the Dell
What is the warranty on a prebuilt Dell?