Decisions, Decisions... Nvidia or ATI...?

[ShyguyXPC]

Hey guys, next paycheck will be a biggie, near 40 hours a week, sunday pay, time plus time & half on 4th July @ 8 hours (comes out to just over $27/hour @ 8 hours ), possible Vacation hours used, etc...

so decided amongst using some money this past check for a new large HDD for the game rig (back up my data onto basically), have to order it this week.

but for next paycheck I'm debating on whether to grab a 8800GT, 9800GTX, or HD4850/4870 (probably not latter, as its just a bit beyond what i WANT to spend, assuming I could find one, since they appear to be damn near sold out everywhere )

I know I offer a lot of suggestions/help in this stuff in regards to GPU's, but I'm having tough time deciding on which to go for. I know the new HD4xxx series just wipes the floor with nVidia's new GT200 as far as price vs performance etc etc... & even wipes the 9xxx series out too... problem though.

I am running a 650i SLI board, so any chance of Crossfire is not going to happen.

full system specs as they stand now:

-MSI P6N SLI Platinum
-Intel E6400 @ stock (all stock no OCing on any of system parts)
-3GB GSkill DDR2-800/PC-6400 2x 1GB, 2x 512MB
-PNY Geforce 8800GTS 320MB
-OCZ 700W GameXStream PSU
-HT Omega Striker 7.1 Sound
-WD 250GB 16MB Cache 7200RPM SATAII (WinXP Boot drive)
-Seagate 2x80GB 8MB cache 7200RPM SATA in RAID 0 (Software RAID via XP)
-Lite-On DVDRW drive
-Mitsumi 1.44 Floppy with Multi-flash card reader
-Thermaltake Armor Case (250mm Side fan/window panel)

all running XP MCE 2005, with all updates, (haven't updated vid drivers in a couple months, everything else though is updated, except for maybe Bios its not up to the absolute latest)

I have an Intel Q6600 Quad thats been waiting for installation, till I get the HDD's to back up data to. as well as a nice Oversized cooler for it LOL, Coolermaster Gemin II

I know I'm going to have to practically gut the system to get the cooler in and upgrade CPU, but thats kind of what got me thinking...

if I go with ATI, I'm going to want to grab an Intel or AMD board for potential Crossfire down the road, as well as might as well upgrade to a PCIE 2.0 based board too...

no matter how I look at it, a complete fresh reinstall of XP is going to happen, no matter which cards I go for (new vid card, CPU, etc, probably will trigger a reactivation or whatever for windows, & need a new clean install anyways)

If I stay with nVidia, I can at least use SLI, my PSU is good enough for any of the new cards, no problems there. issue with my current board I'm wondering, is if I DID get say a 9800GTX now, & another down the road here shortly... my board runs 8x 8x SLI, not full 16 on both slots... wondering if the 9800GTX performance would be bottlenecked by the 8x 8x config?

2x 8800GT's wouldn't be as bad I would imagine, with slightly lesser specs than the GTX's, 2x 9600GT's would be even less of an issue. but with the GTX, wondering about that?

the other thing, wondering whether It would be better for me to move up to a better board... problem is, spending on a new card, & then a new board, would seriously put me over budget... not looking to spend more than $300 if I can... preferably under $250 at best if can.

I currently don't play Crysis, though after GPU & CPU upgrade will pick it up & play it some, something new I guess LOL, mainly picking it up for any new mods/total conversions that may come out in future.

currently my most demanding games are Oblivion, Test Drive Unlimited, & some others like Battlestations Midway, ArmA, etc

will be buying COD4, & one or two others down the road (Two Worlds, etc)

its hard to decide, I could go for a single HD4850... but wondering how that would compare to say a SLI 9800GTX setup? or 8800GT SLI setup?

the 8800GT SLI setup I could go for, pricing is reasonable enough. (in my case, SLI will only really benefit the most demanding of my games, any other games I run currently max out with my current card anyways, so not a big issue)

oh, forgot, I'm still using a 17" CRT display, 1600x1200 max res (usually play on 1024x768, 1280x1024, some games on 1600x1200)


this time around, I don't necessarily need the absolute best in graphics, but looking at the pricing its hard to avoid LOL, considering I bought the 320MB GTS almost 4-6 months after it came out, & still paid almost $300 for it, was only the 3rd best (technically 2nd best card for normal res gaming) around at the time. for that much or less I can easily double or triple my graphics performance, which is pretty sweet when you think about it.

My main thing right now is wanting to run Oblivion fully maxed out @ at least 1280x1024, with a good 30-40fps in outdoors, & to achieve that I'm thinking I'm going to need an SLI setup or better (SLI or HD4xxx series)

anyways sorry about the long post, just that I get so indecisive about these things, & don't want to end up wasting my money too much.

the main thing that has me worried is if I grab one or two cards for SLI that might get bottlenecked by the lower 8x 8x SLI this board does...

I can grab a single HD4xxx card no problem, but worried that I'll want to grab another down the road & that would mean a complete Mobo swap as well... (but i remember freaking out LOL like that when I got the current board & GPU, & have yet to add a 2nd card anyways)



after just reading through the Toms, 4850 review, I've got mixed feelings about it, it performs a little better than a 9800GTX, but the temps it runs at & power consumption (more of an on the temps though... especially considering its not a dual slot rear vented card...)

thinking if I can nab a 9800GTX for a good price I might do that... but hard to say.

what would your opinions be? most cost effective, etc, with out going beyond the budgets.

(wouldn't be selling 8800GTS right now either, might sell to my brothers friend, when he can afford it, along with the C2D E6400 to build him a newer better rig, so should be able to get a good $175-200 for both, thats extra towards another GPU when that happens, hence comments of down the road shortly)

thanks for any suggestions (I kind of have my mind set on just going SLI, but then again, I'm not 100% convinced, especially if that 8x 8x SLI config will reduce/bottleneck max performance)

[KarmaKiller]

Wow... Sit down and take a breath.. You gotta be worn out after typing that much..

In all honesty, I'm in the same boat, but with a EVGA 680i. I mean, the 9600gt is a great card, but at this point I'm starting to hit games that won't max out.

Some answers though. The 8x 8x config would slow down the system a little(with 8800GT's or anything higher), but I'm really unsure of how much. I've read some people saying they're only getting like 1500 more points in 3D mark after the second card was installed. Then I've read others that are completely satisfied. And I have no first hand experience in 8x 8x config's.
What I would do for now though, is put your money into making your Quad run. You have it already, might as well be using it. You can run those on 650i boards, and they run good at stock settings. It's when you get into OCing that it becomes a problem. But if your not doing that, then no worries.
I myself think I'm gonna go the way of the 9800GTX also. More for Folding then actual gaming, but still... lol
Another thing I want to mention. I have a GeminII, and they aren't very good unless you lapp them. Once I did that, and put 2x 60CFM fans on there, it works great. But if you don't want to deal with lapping, then I wouldn't get it/use it. There are MUCH better coolers out there for cheap!

I came to the same conclusion as you though. With having a SLI board that handles the Quad wonderfully, I want to stick with this board until the new socket arrives. The CF board I have doesn't run the Quad quite as well, so I don't think I wanna go back on that..

Did I just make a long rambling again??

EDIT:
Short Version:
Get a 9800GTX, or even just do a SLI setup. You can get a GTS for ~$100 now, probably cheaper on Ebay/forums. Keep your Mobo till your ready to put a good bit of $ down on one.

[ShyguyXPC]

LOL, yeah, just sat down for some supper, back now

yeah, the GeminII, only reason I got it, was it was on sale on a special last year on newegg for $15, figured it was a good deal... though after I got it & a couple months later when I went to read up some on it, I found out many people complaining about a proper backplate to support the thing, I emailed Coolermaster & never got a reply, as to whether they had one, or were to release one...

so have been 2nd guessing using it, its a nice big cooler, only planned on using it as a passive cooler with the 250mm fan on the case, and no OCing right now. but the downsides to it, the main one, is its massive size, makes plugging things in to difficult, for example the RAM, I have all 4 slots used right now, but should I go 64-bit OS, & want to boost it from 3GB to 4 or 6GB will be a bit of a problem.

have been looking at some other coolers, just don't want to pay $50-60 for one though... for a while I was looking at the one from Enzotech, but I haven't seen it sold on several sites for a while now, & not sure if its still available or not. but even with that said, it was a $60-70 cooler too.

i looked at pricing on a 680i board, one that allows 16x 16x, but then figured aside from that one perk, an extra $150 spent on it, didn't really seem like a great deal (probably better in OCing than the 650, but since I don't do that much anymore if at all, not really a perk either). 750/780 boards would be nice, but near or at $200+? big turn-off.

thing is I don't really want to spend that much on upgrades, considering its only a partial upgrade this year, to this system I built last year... CPU & GPU, some storage.

but there are a couple other things to buy next check too, new headset finally & would REALLY love to upgrade the sound card to the X-fi Prelude if I could (if I have enough, or wait on that after selling the old CPU & GPU), 2nd Optical drive also wanting & TV Tuner card.

unless of course I can be convinced in buying a Wii, then the Optical drive & tuner card as well as headset might be put on hold LOL... still need to get one of these

thing is, I'd love to go for the ATI cards, but then I'm pretty much looking at an entire new system, with a Mobo swap in there...

I think I will go for a 9800GTX (slight performance boost of the GTX+ doesn't really seem like its worth the extra $30 you'd spend on it), if I could afford the extra $200 I'd grab a single 9800GX2 & just run one of those, but thats another $200 I don't want to spend.

the one thing I do have to laugh about is the pricing of the GTX vs the 8800GTS G92, GTX's going for $199, GTS's going for $205+... with the GTX being the "better" of the 2, despite more or less being the same card, aside from clock frequencies

one things for sure though, either way my 3D render times in Carrara 6 & other apps will drop by a good 50% LOL...

any suggestions on a good CPU cooler that should fit in my case/board, & cool the Q6600 pretty well, even for OCing (G0 stepping Quad)? (not any of those Tower coolers like the ones from Thermalright or Thermaltake, like the sonic tower, of Hyper blah blah blah LOL, their impressive in cooling, but way over sized & stick out too much)

[KarmaKiller]

I gotcha.
Cheap good cooler, Arctic Freezer Pro. I believe it's around $32, and it's not overly huge either. It uses push pins, which are a PITA, but if you can get over that, it's a great cooler. That what I got on my G0, and it works good, even when OC'ing. This is a simply fan mod you can do too to drop temps more, which puts you in the range of the high dollar coolers as far as temps.
Another good simple cooler is the ZeroTherm BTF90. It's only $45/$35 after MIR. Which isn't bad.

And if you have people to play the Wii with, they are great fun for awhile. The appeal does wear off though. Lack of decent games really is the biggest turn off.

[EXreaction]

At least wait until the 4870 X2 comes out
[H]ard|OCP

Personally, I think a graphics card upgrade would be a waste of your money. I'd buy 8GB of ram and get Vista x64 before anything if I really wanted to spend money on it.

[KarmaKiller]

ZOTAC ZT-88SES2P-FSP | ZOTAC GeForce 8800 GTS | ZOTAC GeForce 8800 GTS G92 512MB ZT-88SES2P-FSP 256-bit GDDR3 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready SLI ZOTAC Video Card
8800GTS for $149 after MIR... Not to bad..


Ex-

Middle to end of July, price TBA. Latest mutterings from the marketdroids that I've heard keep saying 479.99 or 499.99$ MSRP.

That's A LOT of money for a GPU..

[EXreaction]

That's actually a lot cheaper than I expected it to be.

The 3870 is $300 and the GTX 280 is $650.

If the 3870 X2 is only going to be $500, it will drive the prices down.

[KarmaKiller]

Price for performance is there, I'm not arguing that at all. That's gonna be a awesome card. But, IMO, anything over $300 is just a waste of money. Especially with the current market trend.
Take the 9800 for example. That was over $300 when it came out. And because of the price war, it dropped to $199 with in a few weeks of it's release. If I had bought a 9800 for >$300, I would have been ..
I don't see why that's gonna be stopping anytime soon. It seems like you go to bed, wake up and there is another GPU that hit the market..

And BTW, you can pick up a 3870x2 for around $250 now. I've seen them sell on the forums for $225 before.

[EXreaction]

Spending money on 2x cards for SLI would be an even bigger waste. I would not spend any money on it at all right now. Maybe you can pick up a used 8800 GTS for cheap ($100 or less), but anything other than that isn't going to get much better performance and will cost a hell of a lot more.

[ShyguyXPC]

for the Radeon x2 cards you guys are forgetting something too, pretty sure you need a crossfire chipset for those cards as well, which means a Mobo upgrade also... unless they managed to change that recently? I know on the X19xx based Dual GPU card, you needed a Crossfire chipset to use both GPU's otherwise you were stuck with one GPU & one useless one.

thing is, Why would I need to upgrade to 8GB or RAM, & a 64 bit OS right now anyways...

I only have a couple of apps that would even take advantage of that (all 3D rendering apps too), the rest would be a waste as well... but even with those Apps, the performance increase would be minimal as opposed to a better GPU, along with the Quad I have.

even more so for Gaming... how many games out there actually used more than 2-3GB's let alone a whopping 6+?

I'm happy with XP, & not moving to Vista yet, unless I can get a good deal & Dual boot with it.


mainly this upgrade is a gaming upgrade... so yeah, its gonna be a GPU upgrade seeing as I have the Quad, & XP is perfectly fine for that too, I don't have any games that Require Vista yet, nor plan to get any soon (Conan from what i've heard sucks now, as many are waiting till more patches & fixes are released & hopefully many of the kiddies ruining the game move on as well)

reason for a Dual card upgrade eventually is anything else would really require a Mobo upgrade as well & trying to avoid from doing a complete system upgrade until next year (once every 2 years if I can)

just be glad I'd be willing to spend on 2 cards for SLI on cheaper "older" cards rather than newer top of line, though the 9800 isn't far from that, but considering the price drop its a nice deal right now.

granted SLI & CF don't work for every game, those that it does, its a nice performance Boost... hell some of the benchmarks I'd seen when reading on the new GT200 GTX models showed a 2x 8800GT SLI setup actually did better in some instances, now those 8800GT's are quite a ways down the list from the GTX 260/280's... so thats got to say something for SLI, & considering the GTX 260/280 pricing... its a steal, when you can find 2x 8800GT's at $129 each after rebates...


anyways I didn't really start this thread for a SLI/CF pro's/con's for or against type thing...

I have an SLI board & it's probably what I'll do to stretch out the performance for the system with games for the next 6-9 months...

my main concern was that the 8x 8x SLI might hold back performance more than I would of liked, if that was the case, then yes, grabbing 2 cards would be a waste in deed.

but nice find on the 8800GTS G92 Karma, bookmarked it for later, even before rebates, its not too bad, $10 cheaper than the GTX.