Need Dual-GPU recommendation

Meph · June 24th, 2009, 08:49 PM

OK, I finally got sick of limping along with my 7 year-old machine--it's past the point where I can keep swapping out parts to keep it current.

I went to Micro Center today and found a really good deal. Got an HP system with the following relevant specs:
CPU: C2Duo 7200
4GB RAM

On the way out the door, I picked up an Enermax 82+ 525W PSU (not the modular). The idea is that I'll drop two GPUs into the machine, and the stock PSU won't handle that load. The Enermax will, and is quiet.

The thing is, I'm trying to do this all on the cheap (the less I spend, the less the wife complains). I'd like to stay under $160 for two graphics cards.

I don't play any games that have come out in the past 2-3 years, and the only game that might be coming out before I build a hot-rod rig (sometime in the next 2 years) that I'd play would be Diablo 3.

What I primarily do is run 3 monitors (2 x 19" @ 1440 x 900 res, 23" @ 1680 x 1050 res) for basic tasks, with some Photoshop CS4 thrown in. And potentially some basic video editing, as well.

So by and large, I just need to push resolution, with the occasional game thrown in here and there.

All that said, would a pair of XFX 9500 GT 512MB be good? Or should I go for something a bit beefier? I like having 2 DVI-out on a card. In the future I might expand to a second 23" monitor--I know 2 9500s can't push that much resolution--so I'd have to drop in a third card. And from a driver headache standpoint, if I take that leap in a year or so, I want to be able to buy a third copy of whatever card (so the 8xxx cards aren't as attractive).

EDIT: While cruising for a comparable deal on another site, I noted an Asus, which Newegg has for $49.99 AMIR w/free shipping (up to 2 per household!). Both cards look big, but if I can fit the XFX, I can fit the Asus. Does the Asus sound like a better choice?

**RicheemxX** · June 24th, 2009, 11:29 PM

Quote:

Got an HP system with the following relevant specs:

you missed one major relevant spec and that would be what type of slots you have on that motherboard. Most whitebox pc's don't come with dual pci-e x16 slots.

ShyguyXPC · June 25th, 2009, 01:45 AM

and if you did have dual 9500GT's running in SLI you can only use 1 display, unless thats changed?

you'd have to run them as separate cards to achieve 3-4 display setup.

Driver wise, they all use the same drivers, Geforce 8xxx, 9xxx, etc, series. so thats not an issue.

to want to run a 3rd card down the road, well... if your looking at 3 PCIE cards, you'll need 3 PCIE x16 physical slots to achieve that. all cards run independent of each other.

as rich said, was going to point that out too but then scrolled down and saw rich posted it too, we need to know the specs of the motherboard in the system first, 1 or 2 PCI-Express slots (which types), PCI slots etc?

as to the difference between the two 9500GT's you linked to, the Asus is a better deal from a Performance standpoint, $5 cheaper, 100MHz faster core clock, Mail in rebate so its even cheaper and Free shipping. but as you pointed out its a dual slot card thanks to its cooler (pathetic thing is, Asus probably doesn't need the dual slot cooler, as this 9500GT is running close to the same specs as a previous 8600GTS it replaces and many of those were single slot cards)

if space is an issue I'd go for the XFX (also in general XFX has the better warranty, along with eVGA & BFG).

but until we/you know the specs of the motherboard and slots you have as well as spacing between slots etc, would hold off on jumping on anything just yet.

as to running 4 monitors, I honestly don't see why 2 9500GT's would have a problem running those resolutions on 4 displays (2 per card), as long as your not gaming on those resolutions on more than 1 display, for Photoshop and other more "mundane" tasks on the PC, 2 9500GT's shouldn't have much trouble running 4 displays. why you'd need to add in a 3rd similar spec card is beyond me. maybe its just me, but it seems a bit overkill and unnecessary for a quad display setup.

since your looking at running more than 2 cards, SLI is out due to lack of ability to run multiple displays in SLI mode (and no specs on whether the mobo can even run SLI), also since your new PSU can more than handle it. maybe getting a single beefier card for the main display device, and a 9500GT for the secondary.

a Geforce 9600GT or 9800GT plus a 9500GT for secondary would make sense to me, the primary being plenty to run games on, and should be enough to run Diablo 3 pretty good when it comes out, as well as handle the resolutions your talking about fine too.

your PSU has 2x PCIE connectors, a 6 pin and 2x 6+2 pin, enough for single connector cards. 9500GT shouldn't need one. and that would mean there's plenty of connectors for something as large as a 9800GTX+/GTS 250 there. it has 3x +12V rails, each @ 25Amps, but there's no way that PSU will be able to max out all those amps on that 525W rating, 75Ax12V= 900W

way past its power specs.

Newegg.com - ENERMAX PRO82+ EPR525AWT 525W ATX12V Ver.2.3 SLI Ready CrossFire Ready 80 PLUS BRONZE Certified Active PFC Power Supply - Power Supplies

with a $160 budget, something like this is possible (if enough room in the case)

Newegg.com - ZOTAC ZT-98GES5P-FCP GeForce 9800 GT 512MB 256-bit GDDR3 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready SLI Supported Video Card - Desktop Graphics / Video Cards

(just get a cheap HDMI to DVI converter for the HDMI connection and you have 2x DVI's) Newegg.com - MSI N95GT-MD512-OC GeForce 9500 GT 512MB 128-bit GDDR2 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready Video Card - Desktop Graphics / Video Cards

comes to total of 2 cents under $160, not including shipping, factor in $30 of Mail In Rebates...

run the 23" display on the 9800GT for your games and any future games, and run the 2 19" displays off of the 9500GT, both cards should be using the same drivers set, so shouldn't be an issue of driver versions conflicting.

but this is of course assuming you have 2 PCI-Express x16 Physical slots in your system. if its just 1 PCIE x16 slot and PCI or PCIE x1 slots, then that changes things a bit. PCI 9500GT's are expensive compared to PCIE versions, and x1 PCIE cards are few and far between, low low end, and EXPENSIVE.

Meph · June 25th, 2009, 08:35 AM

Well, I left out the slots on the mobo because it's not relevant, really. Someday when I build my gaming rig I'll want to configure everything in SLI/Crossfire, but for now, any game I'm playing will work just fine with with just one GPU. For the record, the mobo has one PCIe x 16 slot, and the rest are PCIe (x 1).

I want to get two of the same card, because my experience with NVIDIA cards (granted, running XP, and this new machine is Vista 64-bit) is that both cards end up using the same drivers, so to avoid any PITA driver-wrangling, I figure it's easier to use two identical cards. I was looking at another machine that had a dedicated graphics card already (9500 GS), but the store didn't have any aftermarket 9500 GS (only GT, GTS), and the doofus at the store said that the 9500 GS used different drivers than the 9500 GT.

Long story short, if all the 9xxx cards use the same drivers, that makes it less important that I run two identical cards. And on my current machine, one card cannot push 2 monitors @ 1680 x 1050 resolution (at at least 70 MHz--any lower and the flicker gives me headaches), and my reading of the max resolution the 8xxx or 9xxx cards was that they couldn't, either. Then I did the math and yeah, the max resolution on the 9xxx cards can handle 3360 x 1050.

Since you say the drivers are the same for all 9xxx series, I'm tempted to get different cards. As far as having only one PCIe x 16 slot, aren't PCIe x 16-capable cards using the same interface, and can "clock down" to use a PCIe x 1 slot?

Sorry if that last question is idiotic, but I thought most cards were backwards-compatible; i.e., AGP 4x cards worked in AGP 2x or 1x systems (just with a slower interface).

I'm opening up the case in a few minutes to put in the new PSU. I'll see how much room there is... that's the problem with ordering parts online, though: it might look like a tight-but-doable fit, but when the stuff arrives, you see that it's too tight.

Meph · June 25th, 2009, 10:42 AM

Wow, never mind. I'm behind the times. I see now that PCI-E x 1 slots are definitely not compatible with the type of graphics cards I would want to put in.

I'm returning the PC I bought, and, looking at the rest of the line-up at this place, none of them have 2x PCI-E x 16 slots.

Guess I'll be building from scratch. And given that I don't want to buy a new copy of Vista and then pay for the upgrade to Windows 7 (one of the things that sold me on the machine I bought yesterday was the fact that @ $360 it came with Vista 64-bit and a free upgrade to 7 when it comes out), I won't be building my own machine until October. Try as I might, I can't spec out a decent rig for the same price as I paid for the one I got yesterday. If I wasn't so attached to my 3 monitors (and dreaming of a 4th), it wouldn't be a problem.

Thanks for your insights. You saved me money and a lot of headache.

KarmaKiller · June 25th, 2009, 11:52 AM

Newegg.com - AMD Athlon X2 7550 Kuma 2.5GHz 2 x 512KB L2 Cache 2MB L3 Cache Socket AM2+ 95W Dual-Core Processor - Processors - Desktops
$50

Newegg.com - ASUS M4A78 Plus AM3/AM2+/AM2 AMD 770 ATX AMD Motherboard - AMD Motherboards
$80 ($70 after MIR)

Newegg.com - G.SKILL 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 1066 (PC2 8500) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model F2-8500CL5D-4GBPK - Desktop Memory
$55 (free shipping)

Newegg.com - ASUS EN9600GSO/DI/512M GeForce 9600 GSO 512MB 192-bit GDDR3 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready Video Card - Desktop Graphics / Video Cards
$70 ($55 after MIR)

Newegg.com - Rosewill R223-P-BK 120mm Fan ATX Mid Tower Computer Case - Computer Cases
$30 free shipping

Newegg.com - Western Digital Caviar SE WD2500AAJS 250GB 7200 RPM 8MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive - Internal Hard Drives
$48

Newegg.com - SAMSUNG Black 22X DVD+R 8X DVD+RW 16X DVD+R DL 22X DVD-R 6X DVD-RW 12X DVD-RAM 16X DVD-ROM 48X CD-R 32X CD-RW 48X CD-ROM 2MB Cache SATA 22X DVD Burner - CD / DVD Burners
$25

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Total: $358 (assuming you still have the PSU and a OS)

How's that?

**RicheemxX** · June 25th, 2009, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meph

Well, I left out the slots on the mobo because it's not relevant, really.

Wow, never mind. I'm behind the times. I see now that PCI-E x 1 slots are definitely not compatible with the type of graphics cards I would want to put in.

seriously I wouldn't have mentioned it if it wasn't relevant, but it sounds like you've got it figured now.

TBH any two newer cards from the same manuf would be fine. I've even run two different cards (one ati one nvidia) w/o issues but you are always better off sticking with the same manuf if you can.

IMO if you are doing any gaming and still want the multi monitor support but don't want to buy two high end cards for an sli setup then buy one high end card (the best one you can afford) and then throw in a low end cheaper card for the extra monitors. You don't need a high end gpu just to run app on the secondary set of monitors

Meph · June 25th, 2009, 04:32 PM

Yeah, color me stupid. I opened up the case and immediately saw what you were talking about. When I returned it, the salesdoofus tried to tell me I could "easily" put an inexpensive PCI-E 1x card in. I had already checked newegg and found that low-end PCI-E 1x cards were going for $100.

Since the Asus 9500GT 128-bit 512MB DDR3 is $65 (before $15 MIR), I have no compunctions whatsoever about popping two of those in and having my secondary monitors be running off an "overpowered" card. Though another salesdoofus today told me 1) Going from multiple-monitors to SLI doesn't require a reboot anymore and 2) Crossfire doesn't require identical cards. #1 made me happier about SLI, but #2 made me think that doing a hi/lo ATI setup might be worth it... except I don't trust the salesdoofuses anymore, and I don't know that I'd get much of a performance boost in Crossfire if I paired, say, a 4770 with a 4650.

tl;dr version:
Screw the manufacturer overstock/clearance; I'm building from scratch and probably going with the dual Asus 9500GT setup. Now I just have to figure out a low-cost Phenom II CPU/mobo combo that will let me run SLI.

And KarmaKiller, that's a good build--with a second version of that GPU & the money I've already shelled for the PSU, that would clock in @ ~$545. In that other thread I've got a build spec'ed out @ $650 before rebates. Though I like to save money, that $100 difference seems to buy some substantial performance increases.

ShyguyXPC · June 25th, 2009, 07:23 PM

The Crossfire thing is true, but requires the cards to be of the same family.

for example, you can run in a dual card setup any of these cards, Radeon 4890, 4870, 4850, 4830 with each other, even a 4850x2 or 4870x2 with any one of the cards above for a 3 way Crossfire setup. (you can mix clock speeds and memory sizes too from what I've been told, Crossfire isn't as rigid with standards as SLI is, but SLI seems to usually be the better performer from what I've seen, plus drivers are usually more polished for SLI as well, and updated more frequently too)

but its recommended to run the same cards, so 2x 4850's, or a 4850 and 4850x2 for example.

but you can't run say a 4670 and a 4830 together, their not of the same "family" of chips, if it were a 4650 and 4670, yes. as to the 4770, as far as I know, they're all by them selves so far, since their the only 40nm GPU's out on the market from ATI.

my Core i7 setup, if I ever get around to finishing it LOL, is supposed to be running a 4870 and 4830 in crossfire (have all the parts, just need to finish assembling it and install windows). although I'm only using one display now or will be, my 24" LCD, running 1920x1080, I plan on getting a smaller 2nd 15"/17" or so display sometime late in the year, something running 1440x900 or 1366x768 or something in that range. so that when I'm working in my 3D apps I can still keep an eye on other things in the smaller display (as it is the software I use will allow me to split the screen of a large display into 2 windows so I can have a more effective workspace layout, I think one of the more recent Photoshops allow something similar). but I have to research some more and find out if Crossfire will allow me to run multiple screens or not, I only need one for games, but whether it will allow me to run games on one display in crossfire, and allow me to use a 2nd display for desktop and any other apps? lord knows the i7 will be able to handle it, just have to worry about the drivers for the cards, thats the limiting factors in my situation.

was going to comment on your reply about the PCIE x1 slots, but I scrolled down further and see you found what I was talking about.

if its a x16 "Physical" slot with x1, x4, x8 or so bandwidth (commonly referred to "Electrical") then yeah, a 2nd card would fit and run/work, but it needs to be a physical x16 slot to fit and run. although its possible to "mod" a x1 slot to run a x16 card (Karmakiller or someone, 2Monsters maybe) had a link from another site where they modded an x1 slot or x4 slot to run a full length card, for Folding@Home. but needless to say it involves dremeling and filing and potentially destroying your nice new motherboard to work LOL. there are other ways, like using a x1 to x16 adapter card, which is intended for low profile cards, but the adapter cards cost another $30-50+ and all they are is a Riser card.

Meph · June 26th, 2009, 09:21 PM

Yeah, I found this on the ATI site that lists which cards are cross-compatible for Crossfire. I also read a whole lot about SLI vs. Crossfire, and I tend to like Crossfire better, as having to configure SLI profiles for games seems a bit of a pain. Crossfire seems to be more hands-off. Maybe SLI gives better performance, but for the stuff I'll be doing, I'd never notice it. Hell, a non-Crossfired 4670 will be light years better than the GeForce 6200 (2x AGP) I use now, and the 6200 makes all the games I play look real purty.

I seriously had no idea that there was a physical difference in the PCI-E x16 & x1 slots. What a joke. I returned the computer, and only after I placed my order for all the parts to build a new rig from scratch did I remember the x2 cards. I wouldn't be able to run anything in Crossfire mode, and I would have to get a beefier PSU, but that would've been an option--in the end, I'd get better graphics for gaming, but it would run $100 or so more than building my own system. Plus, the idea of spending more for a PSU + video card than on the computer itself seems a bit silly.