New GTS 450 freezing PC

[Jishaxe]

SOLVED.

I wouldn't recommend reading through the entire seven pages, unless you want to follow my troubleshooting.
The problem was with the xcase riser. I bought a new one from LinX, stuck it in, and it works fine without any freezes.

Thanks to Shyguy for the help with this issue!



Hi,

First of all, here are my specs:
PC: HP Minitower DC7800
CPU: Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600
PSU: Antec 520w Eco Continuous Power
Card: eVGA nVidia GTS 450 1GB
Background:
I am trying to put together a budget semi-gaming computer and saw the minitower for £130, pretty nice deal. So I bought that and the card and also a cheap £17 Alpine 700w power supply. I
started to have the problems after installing it so following advice I decided to buy a new power supply, the one I have now. It was certified so I hoped it would solve the problem, but it didn't. But
buying the certified one was a good idea anyway - I'm pretty sure the card couldn't live on the crappy PSU.
The actual problem:
Essentially, the computer freezes. Everything stops moving, any sound that happens to be playing will be looped annoyingly and the computer would require a hard reset (Holding the case power
button down)
Essential info:
- The card is attached to the PCI-E slot through a flexible riser because it wouldn't fit directly in the slot because of a bolt in the heat sink which I cannot remove is in the way.
- The card is plugged in with a single six-pin connector rather than a molex splitter.
- My computer is a 2007 computer so it fairly old but the card is brand new - arrived a couple of weeks ago.
Theories I have on why it is being caused:
- GPU has not got enough power - SEMI-RULED OUT
This is why I replaced the PSU because the freezing appeared to be a symptom of underpowering. But the new PSU supplies enough watts (I think, I added the CPU and GPU use at peak to
around 300w, most other devices are unplugged for debugging) as it spits out 520 watts. It also has one 12+ rail that claims to deliver 40a which should suffice for the GTS 450. I have almost
outruled the card being underpowered but I have another idea as listed below.
- GPU is not compatiable with the mobo in the tower - POSSIBLE
I really hope this isn't the case, because I can not afford to buy another tower and I can't return it because of all the hacking up I had to do to the case just to fit in the PSU.
- GPU is being interrupted by another device - RULED OUT
I gave the GPU an IRQ of itself (5) in the BIOS. No dice.
- GPU is overheating - RULED OUT
I am monitoring the temps through eVGA precision and they never rise over 54 C, and I've used it plenty of times with the case open and the room cool from opened windows. The CPU also
remains cool. So I don't think this is a problem.
- RAM is overheating or bad - POSSIBLE
I will do a memory test when I get home.

Patterns I noticed about the freezing:
- Opening more than one application at the same time raises the chance of it freezing. I have been fine playing Minecraft and voice chatting to a friend on Steam for ages. But opening Google
Chrome while copying files over from a hard drive will instantly freeze it. Maybe this is a coincidence but it seems that putting more stress on either the CPU or GPU will make it freeze more.
It has though, frozen on the desktop with only Task Manager open and also during BIOS.
It also froze when using the VGA drivers, but that might have been before I carried out some of the solutions.

Right, let's get to what I have tried:
- Reseated the card and the RAM
- Blown out the dust with a pressure blower
- Reinstalled and tried several different drivers
- Installing a new PSU
- Underclocking the GPU
- Unplugging everything but the essentials (DVD drive etc)
- Disabling audio drivers
- Assigning the GPU its own IRQ
- Disabling the onboard graphics card

And things I haven't tried (reasons why explained):
- Buying a new riser (I want to be absolutely sure that the riser is the problem before I do that)
- RMAing the card (I'd rather not wait a few weeks for a new card if it won't work anyway)
- Trying it on another computer (None at disposal)
- Increasing voltage through MSI afterburner (Not sure about this, opinions?)
- Buying a new computer (Can't afford or return)
- Run a memory test (Will do when I get home)
- Update my BIOS (scared of bricking)

Other problems:
- Sometimes when the computer is switched on there will be no video display and the fans on the GPU will start running at 100%
- When doing anything mildy GPU stressfull I get the famous "Display stopped responding and successfully recovered" error.
This has happened when running Furmark and also attempting to record Minecraft using Fraps for too long.
As the GTS 450 is a mid-end card, I really don't think it should be crashing out so easily.

I have been having this problem for quite a while and it's frustrating me. I just want it to work!
I want to exaust every other option before I send anything back or spend any more money (sorry if I sound cheap). So please list any ideas you have!
If you need any more info please do not hesitate to ask! I just want it fixed.
I'll probably add to this thread as I remember/try other solutions.
Thanks so much in advance,
Jishaxe

[ShyguyXPC]

Essential info:
- The card is attached to the PCI-E slot through a flexible riser because it wouldn't fit directly in the slot because of a bolt in the heat sink which I cannot remove is in the way.
- The card is plugged in with a single six-pin connector rather than a molex splitter.
- My computer is a 2007 computer so it fairly old but the card is brand new - arrived a couple of weeks ago.

Can you take a picture of this bolt and your cases internals and post here, it SHOULD fit, but maybe your overlooking something.

The card SHOULD be using the 6 pin PCIe power connector from the PSU anyways, so its a moot point on whether it is or is using a Molex Plug.

It may be 2007, but for a budget gaming PC, its more powerful than some of the NEW budget gaming systems out today, with a Q6600 Quad, which is still plenty for most games, plus the new card, which is more powerful than any cards that were around in 2007 as well.

Theories I have on why it is being caused:
- GPU has not got enough power - SEMI-RULED OUT
This is why I replaced the PSU because the freezing appeared to be a symptom of underpowering. But the new PSU supplies enough watts (I think, I added the CPU and GPU use at peak to
around 300w, most other devices are unplugged for debugging) as it spits out 520 watts. It also has one 12+ rail that claims to deliver 40a which should suffice for the GTS 450. I have almost
outruled the card being underpowered but I have another idea as listed below.
- GPU is not compatiable with the mobo in the tower - POSSIBLE
I really hope this isn't the case, because I can not afford to buy another tower and I can't return it because of all the hacking up I had to do to the case just to fit in the PSU.
- GPU is being interrupted by another device - RULED OUT
I gave the GPU an IRQ of itself (5) in the BIOS. No dice.
- GPU is overheating - RULED OUT
I am monitoring the temps through eVGA precision and they never rise over 54 C, and I've used it plenty of times with the case open and the room cool from opened windows. The CPU also
remains cool. So I don't think this is a problem.
- RAM is overheating or bad - POSSIBLE
I will do a memory test when I get home.

GPU Has enough power, I have that same PSU, and its got MORE than enough power to run a 130W Core i7 Quad core, 6GB DDR3, 3 Hard drives, 1 DVD Drive, a 170W Factory Overclocked GTX 560 Ti, and a Corsair H60 liquid cooling kit, as well as 4 or 5 case fans.

I've used the 400W model of that PSU with a 192W GTX 260, 65W Celeron Dual core, 2GB DDR2, 1 HDD, 1 DVD, and half dozen case fans as well.

So as to enough power to run the Card or the system, its a moot point.

Barring a defective PSU, it has enough power no matter what, so can be ruled out for the most part, unless like I said if its a defective unit.

your other PSU was a piece of junk, I have not heard good things about those Alpines, and 700W is wasted and pointless, you made a good decision going with the Antec over the Alpine, as well as lower wattage.



GPU not compatible with the Mobo? highly doubt it, if its PCI Express 2.0 it will be compatible. PCI Express is backwards compatible as well.

Aside from an issue with the first PCI Express 2.0 cards (Geforce 8800GT's) on older PCIe 1.1 boards, all PCIe cards are backwards compatible.

PCIe allows for up to 75W of power through the slot, its never changed since PCIe 1.0, and even with 3.0 out now, its still only 75W, so compatibility shouldn't be a problem.

even if the slot was only running at x1 or x4 bandwidth with an x16 length slot, the card should work, just at reduced performance.



If you had to replace the mobo for whatever reason, you don't need to replace the entire tower, just replace the motherboard, those HP systems use standard MicroATX form factor boards, you'd just need to replace it with a mATX mobo just make sure it has all the connections you need, and replace.

aside from maybe Windows that has its serial key tied to the stock motherboard, everything should work.

as to the GPU being interrupted by another device, do you have any other PCI Express cards installed? if not, its not being interrupted, as the PCI Express bus is completely separate from the PCI bus, their not even the same thing, PCI is Parallel data transmission, PCIe is Serial.

only things that might be tied to the PCIe bus would be USB or SATA controllers, since their all Serial and able to communicate interact easily.


GPU overheating is always a possibility, but with the temps you listed its not an issue.




next point, RAM is overheating or Bad... overheating, doubtful, BAD possible.

everything you mention above UP TO this point doesn't usually have much to do with the problem your having.

The ram being corrupted or bad is definitely a possibility.

the problems your having is more indicative of Software related issues, or possible RAM issues.


If the RAM is bad, it should not boot the PC at all, or send it into a reboot cycle.

or give some sort of Error beeps at start up, but it could be part of the RAM is corrupted and only has problems when that part is used by the OS.




Usually the problem that you describe sounds like Driver related issues, or conflicts than anything with Sound looping and system hardlocking needing a manual reboot.

Patterns I noticed about the freezing:
- Opening more than one application at the same time raises the chance of it freezing. I have been fine playing Minecraft and voice chatting to a friend on Steam for ages. But opening Google
Chrome while copying files over from a hard drive will instantly freeze it. Maybe this is a coincidence but it seems that putting more stress on either the CPU or GPU will make it freeze more.
It has though, frozen on the desktop with only Task Manager open and also during BIOS.
It also froze when using the VGA drivers, but that might have been before I carried out some of the solutions.

Your not putting much stress on the GPU when using Chrome and copying files to HDD, versus running Minecraft, the latter will put more stress on the GPU and CPU than the former.

so I wouldn't say that is a cause.

Freezing during Bios would be indicative of the RAM or CPU being the cause, more likely RAM.

Task manager open, also would be RAM, though with the OS in play, and your mentioning of hard drive usage and freezing, it could be the HDD is having problems.

but that wouldn't account for the Bios issues.

And things I haven't tried (reasons why explained):
- Buying a new riser (I want to be absolutely sure that the riser is the problem before I do that)
- RMAing the card (I'd rather not wait a few weeks for a new card if it won't work anyway)
- Trying it on another computer (None at disposal)
- Increasing voltage through MSI afterburner (Not sure about this, opinions?)
- Buying a new computer (Can't afford or return)
- Run a memory test (Will do when I get home)
- Update my BIOS (scared of bricking)

Buying new Riser card, highly doubt this is the problem, wouldn't affect usage in Bios, or when the CPU/Drive usage is spiking.

RMAing the card is pointless until it has been confirmed or highly suspected of being the problem.

Buying a new Computer, pointless, when this can be fixed easily enough on own with proper testing and trial/error.

Run a memory Test, CRUCIAL And recommended.

Update Bios, worried about bricking, I'd wait to rule out the memory because if it is causing issues, it could brick your system easily.

Other problems:
- Sometimes when the computer is switched on there will be no video display and the fans on the GPU will start running at 100%
- When doing anything mildy GPU stressfull I get the famous "Display stopped responding and successfully recovered" error.
This has happened when running Furmark and also attempting to record Minecraft using Fraps for too long.
As the GTS 450 is a mid-end card, I really don't think it should be crashing out so easily.

first thing, its normal for the fans to run at 100% on boot up, initial boot of GPU, just like CPU can see a huge brief temp spike, and it runs at 100% to aid in cooling. also after card has been run for a while, when you shut down and restart fairly quickly, that heatsink is still pretty warm and the 100% on start up helps aid the cooling quicker, so it doesn't build too much.

as to no video display, its normal for many cards, sometimes it gets confused and the monitor misses the initial signal or something screwy happens, I've had it happen to a few cards that was nothing wrong with the cards, just randomly happens sometimes.

Display stopped responding thing, if your Running Windows Vista or Windows 7, this is normal, this is a Windows problem thats never been fixed, happens to both Nvidia and ATI/AMD drivers, somehow the OS fails to update or communicate with the drivers, while stuff is being done, and it blames the drivers, when it was Windows that screwed up.

if its happening all the time, I'd use a Driver cleaner program something like this

Phyxion.net - Driver Sweeper

and remove any and all Nvidia Display drivers, and corresponding software (PhysX, 3D vision)

and reinstall the Nvidia drivers for your OS (latest versions downloaded directly from Nvidia's website, not EVGA's)



Furmark, though a good benchmark, always runs a card harder than it would normally run in most gaming situations anyways, it will tax a cards power consumption and temps harder than most gaming.

its why a lot of review sites refuse to use it in their benchmark suites anymore.

FRAPS isn't GPU bound, its a CPU only software, it records your video, but its using your CPU to record that, and run the software.

So its not related to the GPU per say.

Which leans towards CPU issues, which brings into question again the HDD or most likely the RAM.



GTS 450 is NOT a Mid range card, it was when it was new 2+ years ago, but not now, its in Budget gaming category. For Minecraft it could be considered Mid range, but for most newer games its Budget.

GTX 460 and GTX 560 are Mid range cards. GTX 560 Ti is upper mid range/bottom Top end.

Radeon 6850/6870 are mid range, as are Radeon 7770 and 7850.


As it is, currently a Radeon HD 7750 which is the lowest of the newer Radeon cards, uses only 55W of power, needs no PCIe power connector, costs about $100-110, can be a single slot card, runs VERY cool, and easily beats or matches the Geforce GTS 450.

And that card isn't even considered Mid range its at the border of Budget/Mid range. Until AMD releases a newer card below it, its currently Budget range for the new HD 7000 series.




Now on to suggestions.


Test the RAM.

If you can afford a couple new sticks of RAM (guessing DDR2) pick up a stick of 2GB or 2 Sticks of 2GB and put them in, test and see if they run better, worst case scenario, you have some extra RAM on hand if needed.


Its probably the minimal extra investment into this whole thing.

Just testing with a single 2GB stick would be worth it: Newegg.com - Team 2GB 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Desktop Memory Model TEDD2048M800HC6

Assuming this uses DDR2.



Another thing to test is the HDD.


One thing I don't see you mentioning, you listed you disabled the onboard video.


Have you tried testing WITH the onboard video and the Video card removed from the system and see if same thing happens? Obviously not with minecraft or furmark, but in the CPU based processing situations such as Chrome & HDD files, or running FRAPS in low end games that the onboard can run, etc.

this would better rule out the video card as the culprit if it still happens.




List your OS, which version of the OS.

Nvidia Drivers your currently Using.

Which ones you've tried?


Have you completely updated Windows Updates to everything? DirectX fully updated?

Any other programs running in the background not needed?

Antivirus Running? If so what are you using?


Are you using onboard Audio? or a dedicated Sound card?

What is your Motherboard model and specs (chipset used)

Whats the exact Model of the System you have (HP tower)

what is the Speed/Specs of the RAM your using, was it stock with the tower or did you add your own?

if you need to find out some of this info you can use Speccy to find that info.

Speccy - System Information - Free Download

They also have a driver cleaner program as well, CCleaner - PC Optimization and Cleaning - Free Download

[Jishaxe]

Hi Shyguy,
First of all I'd like to thank you for your very comprehensive reply! It's nice to have someone that knows what they are doing when I do not

Can you take a picture of this bolt and your cases internals and post here, it SHOULD fit, but maybe your overlooking something.

Here ya go;

Heatsink and bolt #1
Heatsink and bolt #2

How the bolt blocks the card from fitting in the slot

Back shot of above


How the card is normally plugged in with the riser

How the case is not built with dual-slot cards in mind
On this picture you can see that if I were to remove the bolt and plug it into the slot, the other half of the card holding either the DVI ports or the fan output would be pressed against the case, meaning I'd have to cut a hole in it.

The power cable from the PSU


As you can see the bolt is inside a spring; turning it around with a screwdriver just makes it turn. I don't think it is possible to get it out, or at least not without risking snapping the board in two.

The card SHOULD be using the 6 pin PCIe power connector from the PSU anyways, so its a moot point on whether it is or is using a Molex Plug.

It may be 2007, but for a budget gaming PC, its more powerful than some of the NEW budget gaming systems out today, with a Q6600 Quad, which is still plenty for most games, plus the new card, which is more powerful than any cards that were around in 2007 as well.

Well this is a relief. I heard somewhere that splitting the cable into two molexes halves the current or something.

GPU Has enough power, I have that same PSU, and its got MORE than enough power to run a 130W Core i7 Quad core, 6GB DDR3, 3 Hard drives, 1 DVD Drive, a 170W Factory Overclocked GTX 560 Ti, and a Corsair H60 liquid cooling kit, as well as 4 or 5 case fans.

I've used the 400W model of that PSU with a 192W GTX 260, 65W Celeron Dual core, 2GB DDR2, 1 HDD, 1 DVD, and half dozen case fans as well.

So as to enough power to run the Card or the system, its a moot point.

Barring a defective PSU, it has enough power no matter what, so can be ruled out for the most part, unless like I said if its a defective unit.

Also a relief

your other PSU was a piece of junk, I have not heard good things about those Alpines, and 700W is wasted and pointless, you made a good decision going with the Antec over the Alpine, as well as lower wattage.

Yeah, it looks like the only component you can't really budget on is the PSU..

GPU not compatible with the Mobo? highly doubt it, if its PCI Express 2.0 it will be compatible. PCI Express is backwards compatible as well.

Aside from an issue with the first PCI Express 2.0 cards (Geforce 8800GT's) on older PCIe 1.1 boards, all PCIe cards are backwards compatible.

PCIe allows for up to 75W of power through the slot, its never changed since PCIe 1.0, and even with 3.0 out now, its still only 75W, so compatibility shouldn't be a problem.

even if the slot was only running at x1 or x4 bandwidth with an x16 length slot, the card should work, just at reduced performance.

That's ruled out then.

as to the GPU being interrupted by another device, do you have any other PCI Express cards installed? if not, its not being interrupted, as the PCI Express bus is completely separate from the PCI bus, their not even the same thing, PCI is Parallel data transmission, PCIe is Serial.

Nope, I don't think so as there is only one PCI-E slot on the system.

only things that might be tied to the PCIe bus would be USB or SATA controllers, since their all Serial and able to communicate interact easily.

In BIOS I did notice that some of the USB controllers were assigned the same IQR as the card, so I gave the card its own one. Would that make a difference?

GPU overheating is always a possibility, but with the temps you listed its not an issue.

Unless, of course, the heat is damaging a part of the GPU that isn't recorded by the temperature sensor, but seeing as the freezing has occurred with the case open and airy, seems unlikely..

next point, RAM is overheating or Bad... overheating, doubtful, BAD possible.

I did do a quick memory test for 20 minutes and it showed up clean, would there be any point in letting it run any longer?

Usually the problem that you describe sounds like Driver related issues, or conflicts than anything with Sound looping and system hardlocking needing a manual reboot.

But it freezes during BIOS and the Windows loadup screen sometimes? Drivers aren't loaded (or the proper ones anyway) in BIOS, are they?

Oh, and I forgot to mention - it's also frozen before with the standard VGA drivers.

And I also installed a fresh copy of Windows XP, it also froze on there.

Your not putting much stress on the GPU when using Chrome and copying files to HDD, versus running Minecraft, the latter will put more stress on the GPU and CPU than the former.

so I wouldn't say that is a cause.

Freezing during Bios would be indicative of the RAM or CPU being the cause, more likely RAM.

Task manager open, also would be RAM, though with the OS in play, and your mentioning of hard drive usage and freezing, it could be the HDD is having problems.

but that wouldn't account for the Bios issues.

Maybe the problem is both. I did do a short scan on the hard disk too, came up clean, but I'm thinking I should do better scans on both. RAM sounds rather likely here.

Run a memory Test, CRUCIAL And recommended.

Ah okay, I will run a memtest86 as soon as I'm finished reading this and get back to you.

first thing, its normal for the fans to run at 100% on boot up, initial boot of GPU, just like CPU can see a huge brief temp spike, and it runs at 100% to aid in cooling. also after card has been run for a while, when you shut down and restart fairly quickly, that heatsink is still pretty warm and the 100% on start up helps aid the cooling quicker, so it doesn't build too much.

as to no video display, its normal for many cards, sometimes it gets confused and the monitor misses the initial signal or something screwy happens, I've had it happen to a few cards that was nothing wrong with the cards, just randomly happens sometimes.

Ah, but I don't mean they run for a moment and then stop.
I mean sometimes when switching on the computer I get no video output, THEN the fans start running at 100%. And they don't stop until I switch the computer off. Nor does the computer boot past that fan running. I don't even see a POST screen.

Display stopped responding thing, if your Running Windows Vista or Windows 7, this is normal, this is a Windows problem thats never been fixed, happens to both Nvidia and ATI/AMD drivers, somehow the OS fails to update or communicate with the drivers, while stuff is being done, and it blames the drivers, when it was Windows that screwed up.

It's not all the time, it's when I do anything mildly stressful to the GPU, like recording Minecraft with fraps. I'm just thinking it shouldn't be doing that. It runs at a solid 30-40 FPS, why would it be struggling?

if its happening all the time, I'd use a Driver cleaner program something like this

Phyxion.net - Driver Sweeper

and remove any and all Nvidia Display drivers, and corresponding software (PhysX, 3D vision)

and reinstall the Nvidia drivers for your OS (latest versions downloaded directly from Nvidia's website, not EVGA's)

Done already. Thousands of times

FRAPS isn't GPU bound, its a CPU only software, it records your video, but its using your CPU to record that, and run the software.

So its not related to the GPU per say.

This makes me wonder why I get the display driver stopped responding error now if it's not doing much to the GPU..

GTS 450 is NOT a Mid range card, it was when it was new 2+ years ago, but not now, its in Budget gaming category. For Minecraft it could be considered Mid range, but for most newer games its Budget.

My mistake.

As it is, currently a Radeon HD 7750 which is the lowest of the newer Radeon cards, uses only 55W of power, needs no PCIe power connector, costs about $100-110, can be a single slot card, runs VERY cool, and easily beats or matches the Geforce GTS 450.

Are you suggesting an upgrade? :P

If you can afford a couple new sticks of RAM (guessing DDR2) pick up a stick of 2GB or 2 Sticks of 2GB and put them in, test and see if they run better, worst case scenario, you have some extra RAM on hand if needed.


Its probably the minimal extra investment into this whole thing.

Just testing with a single 2GB stick would be worth it: Newegg.com - Team 2GB 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Desktop Memory Model TEDD2048M800HC6

At this very moment I cannot afford new sticks of RAM, I am already in debt with my parents (only a jobless teen). I'll see. I'll do a memtest first.

Another thing to test is the HDD.

Got it.

Have you tried testing WITH the onboard video and the Video card removed from the system and see if same thing happens? Obviously not with minecraft or furmark, but in the CPU based processing situations such as Chrome & HDD files, or running FRAPS in low end games that the onboard can run, etc.

this would better rule out the video card as the culprit if it still happens.

I'm sorry, I managed to miss out this crucial piece of information. The freezes or the booting problems do not happen when the card is out and the onboard video is plugged in. Meaning the GPU is indeed causing the problem. I did use the comp for a couple of weeks before installing the card, it didn't freeze once.

List your OS, which version of the OS.

Nvidia Drivers your currently Using.

Which ones you've tried?


Have you completely updated Windows Updates to everything? DirectX fully updated?

Any other programs running in the background not needed?

Antivirus Running? If so what are you using?


Are you using onboard Audio? or a dedicated Sound card?

What is your Motherboard model and specs (chipset used)

Whats the exact Model of the System you have (HP tower)

what is the Speed/Specs of the RAM your using, was it stock with the tower or did you add your own?

OS: Windows 7 Ultimate 64-bit

Current driver: 296.10
I've also tested the 301 beta and I'm pretty sure I did an older one too - same results.

Windows Update: Nope, looks like I wasn't updated, I forgot to enable Automatic Updated. I am updating right now.

Background programs: Nope, everything is at the bare minimum.
Antivirus: Nothing is running right now but I do have Avast Antivirus installed for when I get around to fixing it.

Audio: Onboard, I believe. There are no audio cards in the other expansion slots - but the PC does have a working internal speaker. It is called "High Definition Audio Device" in Device Manager.

Chipset: Intel Q35 Chipset Family

Motherboard: Hewlett-Packard 0AACh (XU1 PROCESSOR) - running at 48 degrees Celsius according to Speccy. Problem?

Model: HP Compaq/Minitower Convertible DC7800

RAM: Two sticks of DDR 2 Dual-channel 1GB running at 399 MHz. It came with the machine.

Another thing I noticed - when doing all the deleted all drivers completely and obliterating them in safemode with Driver Sweeper... the PC didn't freeze for the whole night. And I was gaming and internetting and all sorts. I thought it was fixed! And then in the morning it froze up again. So maybe it is a driver problem after all...

Anyway, thanks for helping me, looking forward to your reply.

[ShyguyXPC]

I have to work today/tonight but I will try to reply back to yours later tonight when I can.

Just don't have enough time to reply to all the points before having to get ready for work here.

[Jishaxe]

That's fine Shyguy, it means I can have the test results ready by the time you reply

UPDATE #1:
Okay, I ran memtest86+ for two hours (four passes) and it came up clean. No errors. So I'm assuming the RAM is okay. I still have yet to try running the comp with only one stick in and see if that makes a difference.
Testing the hard disk now - I'll edit the results in here.

[ShyguyXPC]

forgot, yes, you should be running the test each time with only one stick.

Which exact model of EVGA GTS 450 did you buy?

Was it a New in box, or was it a Recertified one?

[Jishaxe]

On the card itself it says "GeForce GTS450 1G GDDR5", what other information do you need to know and where would I find it?
Thanks, Jishaxe.

EDIT: It was new in the box.
EDIT2: After reading through the other editions you can get I see what you mean now. It's just a standard one, not Superclocked or FTW.

[ShyguyXPC]

there should be a model number or series on a sticker listing its exact model with in EVGA's product line up.

Just as an example this is one of my cards:

EVGA | Products

Though its a recertified or refurbished one, but what I'm looking for is the part number

PART NUMBER: 01G-P3-1561-AR


Is this the card you have?

EVGA | Products

Never mind, I read the sticker on the back of your card in your pic and its the same one.


Reason I was asking is EVGA makes so many different cards, sometimes they make special limited edition type cards to exhaust GPU stocks, and I was worried that like some company's do, they put crappy cooling solutions on the cards, a real basic cooler for the GPU and no cooling over the Mosfets or VRM's on the card, or RAM.

but this cooler is the standard one used so shouldn't be an issue really (though there is no heatsinks on RAM on rear of card, but mainly its the Power chips on the card that need cooling other than the GPU itself.)


But a quick follow up on the CPU and Bolt issue, your PC is using an Intel BTX style layout and motherboard, thats why the PCIe x16 slot is so close to the CPU Heatsink (the bolts you can't remove, and shouldn't even touch).

most BTX boards only allowed for single slot card uses.

Some boards did have 2 slots of width, but the length of the card was still an issue, or the board was used in a half height case.

Looking at the pics if your fine with voiding your cards warranty, you can take a dremel tool and cut away part of your cards fan shroud, its just cheap plastic covering the rear components and hollow on under side, just be careful not to cut any components on under side. But cut out a small section to fit over and around the CPU Heatsinks retention bolt.

other than that, the card looks like its just long enough to fit.

If not wanting to void the warranty you could see about maybe returning the card and finding another GTS 450 that will fit.

Or if you don't mind going with another brand and GPU you could for what you paid for the GTS 450, assuming you paid about or more than $100.

You could grab a Radeon HD 7750, which would be around the same performance range if not better than the GTS 450:

Newegg.com - PowerColor AX7750 1GBD5-DH Radeon HD 7750 1GB 128-bit GDDR5 PCI Express 3.0 x16 HDCP Ready CrossFireX Support Video Card

or with a bit better cooling, would be shorter and shouldn't have that shroud blocking the bolt for installation:

Newegg.com - SAPPHIRE Radeon HD 7750 1GB 128-bit GDDR5 PCI Express 3.0 x16 HDCP Ready Video Card ( 11202-00-20G)

some other options in this range:

Newegg.com - XFX HD-675X-ZDFC Radeon HD 6750 1GB 128-bit GDDR5 PCI Express 2.1 x16 HDCP Ready Video Card

that would be a bit less powerful than the GTS 450 and 7750.

not by a huge amount, but would be a tad.




This might work: Newegg.com - MSI N450GTS-MD1GD3 GeForce GTS 450 (Fermi) 1GB 128-bit DDR3 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready Video Card

Though this is what I'm talking about with the cheap crappy cooler designs, and lack of cooling on anything else.

Otherwise this other MSI model would work: Newegg.com - MSI N450GTS-MD2GD3 GeForce GTS 450 (Fermi) 2GB 128-bit DDR3 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready SLI Support Video Card

better cooler, and heatsink, but also a 2GB model (overkill, but could help with high resolution texture mods for games and such).

but looking at its pics, and looking at yours, it should fit, if you can fit a dual slot card like the EVGA, but not the length issue, looking at your pics you have a good inch or more past the rear of the slot, and the card in that link clearly would not exceed beyond that, so it should fit.

[ShyguyXPC]

i'll post more later, gotta get ready for work here.

[Jishaxe]

I assume that because you are suggesting cards that can fit in my case, you suspect the riser as an issue? Or at least the latency the riser produces between the card and board?
I've just finished the hard drive surface test. Came out completely clean. I guess that outrules both the RAM and hard disk - and leaves the card.
I've taken an interest to the 7750 - we're working out now whether the Sapphire one on Amazon co.uk will fit my tower without any riser. I just hope that if I do buy a new card, it'll actually work.

EDIT:
The sapphire edition is dual-slot and actually won't fit in my comp without the riser because the PCI slot is on the far end of the case - the other side of the card will be pressed against the case. So that is not an option for now. But the Club 3D Radeon HD 7750 is single slot and four centimetres shorter than my GTS 450 - I'm looking into it now.
What do you think of this? Club3D Radeon HD 7750 1GB GDDR5 128-Bit Graphics Card: Amazon.co.uk: Computers & Accessories

[ShyguyXPC]

Noooo....



... I'm suggesting other cards that will fit in your case based on your pictures that won't extend too far back to interfere with the Bolt.

All those cards listed will/should be short enough to not reach that far back, or their fan shrouds or frames are open enough to not block mounting with that CPU Heatsink Bolt.



you've got me confused as to where and how your using this riser card?

are you using a riser card that lays the card flat perpendicular to the slots in the case or what?

Can you take a picture of the Video card IN the Riser, and being used?

the pictures you posted showed the video card IN the PCIe x16 slot, it looks like a dual Slot card does fit based on those pics, but just can't be too long to keep from hitting that one bolt.

[Jishaxe]

Okay, I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. Although, I'm still thinking that getting a new card might be a lazy way to solve the problem (although it might not!), but if you are still willing to help me, then I am willing to carry it out.
Right, the riser is a flexible riser, as in the two ends are connected by a flexible tape wire. Like this one. (Not the same but mine is bought from xcase)
Also, here is a picture of the card plugged into the riser - as you see it is shifted to the further side of the case so the bolt is not blocking it. In the pic, I do know the supplemental power supply is not plugged in - is usually is when I'm actually using it.
If I do get a card short enough to fit in the PCIe slot I still don't think it will fit because one side of the card (either the fan exaust or the DVI/VGA/HDMI slots) will be pressed against the case.

[ShyguyXPC]

Okay, I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. Although, I'm still thinking that getting a new card might be a lazy way to solve the problem (although it might not!), but if you are still willing to help me, then I am willing to carry it out.
Right, the riser is a flexible riser, as in the two ends are connected by a flexible tape wire. Like this one. (Not the same but mine is bought from xcase)
Also, here is a picture of the card plugged into the riser - as you see it is shifted to the further side of the case so the bolt is not blocking it. In the pic, I do know the supplemental power supply is not plugged in - is usually is when I'm actually using it.
If I do get a card short enough to fit in the PCIe slot I still don't think it will fit because one side of the card (either the fan exaust or the DVI/VGA/HDMI slots) will be pressed against the case.

I assumed that was the type of riser you were using, I'm familiar with most types of PCI and PCIe risers, I use a couple x1 to x16 converting risers for my Mini ITX PC, so I can use a low profile, lower performance x16 slot card in an x1 slot for basic video uses.

I've also looked into the ribbon cable Risers as well.



I just needed to see how it was installed in the case.


It could be the riser is defective, but from the sound of the problems your having, it still seems like a software or Memory related problem.


usually when you get audio looping and hardlocks, its usually driver related, software related or could be something with RAM, at least from my experience.


this is a company I've been using for helping and recommending for people for years, with riser cards anyways.

PCI Express Risers

PCI Risers

Though I bought my riser cards from Newegg (Startech brand) and directly from Startech Website.

this is what I use for one of my systems: PCI Express X1 to X16 Low Profile Slot Extension Adapter | StarTech.com

I bought a couple of versions of this which were slightly taller, and when plugging in a half height card, it extended an inch or so past the bracket to screw it into the case.

So I had to buy a 3rd one of these, and it was a slightly shorter version in height,luckily that one works.


But as to the video card and its mounting problems, the only way getting around it is either a new card, Single slot card (there were a couple of Brands that made single slot GTS 450's, but they ran hotter due to the lesser cooling solutions on them), or a new Motherboard, and Heatsink for the CPU, using the existing systems CPU, RAM, Drives, etc, as well as a new case.

the ribbon extension cable/slot is another method, but its about the only other way.

You could modify your case, but it can be a pain in the arse with prebuilt system cases, to cut them up, and modify them.

That one PCIe riser link above, they have a riser card that would allow the card to lay flat over the other slots, but you'd need to modify the rear slots to allow the monitor connectors to be connected, as well as a way to support and secure the card in place as its laying flat.

more work than it may be worth.


If you really think it is the card, then I'd consider a Single slot Radeon HD 7750, or a Single Slot Radeon 5750/5770/6750/6770 (the 6700's are the same thing as the 5700's, just rebadged and a few minor insignificant extra features added).

[Jishaxe]

UPDATE:

Wow,
I have decided, despite what the temps read, to see if it was a heating problem. I turned up the fans 100% with the case open while I am playing for a few hours - the temps stayed around a cool 35 Celsius. But no freezing whatsoever! Maybe I'm jinxing myself by saying that but if this is a heating problem, at least I have identified it and I will send it to Novatech to get it replaced. Any idea why this might be caused or do you agree it is a faulty card?
Anyway I'll get back to you if it freezes or the card is indeed faulty. Thanks for your help shyguy! Very much appreciated.
I won't be marking the topic as solved just yet (and no-one lock it please), in case it does freeze (but for whatever reason the fans have prolonged the time before freezing). Thanks,
Jishaxe.

UPDATE #2:
Yup, it just froze again. First of all I got the "Lost connection with display" and then I preceded to watch some videos on youtube - then it froze. The temperature was around 30 cels last time I checked! But I think the cooling has prolonged the life - meaning that it's definitely something wrong with the card. Unless you have any objections I will be sending it back to novatech to get it replaced.

[ShyguyXPC]

Cooling didn't do squat, 30C is VERY COOL for any card to be running.

Idle temps not bad, running at load or actually being used, its VERY cool.

The temps you initially listed where VERY cool for the card as well, so its not a Temp issue.

Like I said it sounds like a Driver or software related problem if you keep getting that Lost Connection with Display, or Display Driver failed message.

there's something software related going on here, can almost guarantee it from the sounds of it.




Replying to your post above...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShyguyXPC
Display stopped responding thing, if your Running Windows Vista or Windows 7, this is normal, this is a Windows problem thats never been fixed, happens to both Nvidia and ATI/AMD drivers, somehow the OS fails to update or communicate with the drivers, while stuff is being done, and it blames the drivers, when it was Windows that screwed up.

It's not all the time, it's when I do anything mildly stressful to the GPU, like recording Minecraft with fraps. I'm just thinking it shouldn't be doing that. It runs at a solid 30-40 FPS, why would it be struggling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShyguyXPC
if its happening all the time, I'd use a Driver cleaner program something like this

Phyxion.net - Driver Sweeper

and remove any and all Nvidia Display drivers, and corresponding software (PhysX, 3D vision)

and reinstall the Nvidia drivers for your OS (latest versions downloaded directly from Nvidia's website, not EVGA's)

Done already. Thousands of times


Quote:
Originally Posted by ShyguyXPC
FRAPS isn't GPU bound, its a CPU only software, it records your video, but its using your CPU to record that, and run the software.

So its not related to the GPU per say.

This makes me wonder why I get the display driver stopped responding error now if it's not doing much to the GPU..

What your not understanding here is that Display Driver error is linked to Windows OS, so it doesn't matter if your gaming or not, since the card IS being used just to display the OS, and whatever else.

it could be failing while using these other non taxing GPU tasks, such as FRAPS, or whatever else while gaming or not.

Chrome can use the GPU to accelerate usage, which can put a little load on the GPU, but not much.

The games might not be "struggling", but its still interacting with the drivers, which interact with windows, which can cause the problem.

As has been said its a Windows 7/Vista problem that has been around forever, and still happens.



I'm 99.9% sure its a Software problem of some sort.



There's one more thing to try, may or may not help, but its helped in some other instances with the same problems.


In Windows 7, go to Start Menu, then Control Panel, Then to Hardware & Sound, Then Power Options, You'll have 2 options Balanced or Power Saving.

which ever it is using currently, Click on link to right to change plans settings, In the next window that opens there will be an option below to edit/Change Advanced settings, Click that and in the window that opens scroll down to PCI Express, drop the list down so it shows Linked State Power Management, and make sure its set to Off.

then Apply setting change and close windows.

it couldn't hurt to reboot the PC, but is not necessary.

this should eliminate any power reductions to the video card, in the case of hibernation's, sleep states, or whatever, the card will still down clock and lower power usage when idle or low demand situations, but it should help keep from power being cut.

In some cases it has helped reduce the chance of the Display driver failure and restart issue, some cases has eliminated it as well.

and in some cases hasn't done a dang thing.

But its worth a shot and look into.


I have it shut off on my system and though I haven't had that many display driver connection issues and restarts, it has helped reduce the frequency or chances of it happening.


at least on my end.

Give it a try and see if it helps, you'll probably still have the problem, but it might help stave off the time period or frequency of it happening.

[Jishaxe]

Sorry for taking a while to reply.

Yes, I am pretty sure you're right about it being a software problem. I get different results with different drivers. Here are my tests:
296 and Beta 301 drivers: System locks up completely, cursor does not move and sound cuts off (well, loops) OS does not appear to be running in background. Lockups occur from five minutes to several hours. PC requires hard reset. I believe that cooling the card further lengthens the time before it freezes up, but it could be a coincidence.

275 drivers and the ones that came with the CD:
Instead of lockups, I get usually when browsing websites with animations or videos and when playing games such as Minecraft, I get the infamous "nVidia OpenGL lost connection" error and the "nVidia OpenGL detected an error" error. The screen would then recover. I am suspecting a lack of memory that is usually preceded by the crash. No freezes so far with these drivers, although I might not be running the comp long enough to freeze.

No drivers (Windows VGA ones)
I get a fast screen freeze in about five minutes after the comp has booted, making drivers very difficult to install. The OS is running happily in the background - sound will still be playing, I can still communicate through any voice chat happening at the time, and pressing the case shutdown button, Windows makes its merry shutting down noise and shuts down peacefully - but the screen will still remain in the same place.

Thank you Shyguy for sticking with me through this. I would really like to fix it as I discovered that Novatech charge an inspection fee that is almost the cost of the card itself if the card doe s prove to not be faulty. I went to try your power trick to discover it was already off.

I am considering dual-booting XP again with the old drivers and see if it eliminated the lost connection problem - but not today.

[ShyguyXPC]

As a last resort I'd consider a Reinstall of the OS if possible, but download the latest drivers for everything and store on a USB drive to install after Reinstall.


still having issues with it even on Windows Default VGA drivers, then something is wrong somewhere, could be Video related, but could be a defective card, or some other unforeseen issue.

[Jishaxe]

Shyguy,
Last week I installed Windows XP with the latest drivers and still had the same problem. Thanks so much for your help and patience, it's a shame I can't get it fixed.
Can I do anything to thank you? +rep or something?
Thanks again,
Jishaxe

[ShyguyXPC]

no, thats alright, free tech support site, and we don't have a repping system here on this site, if it was at one of the other sites I'm on, it'd be a different story, as most of them have a rep system.

But here, most of the people in the tech support sections with really high post counts already have a high rep as it is, those with little to know worth of help don't stick around much, not to sound bad or anything, just the way that it is around here.

Just reply back with whatever you find out, or if anything fixes the current situation, so that others who might have the same problems can see what was done to fix it and maybe help them in the future.

[Jishaxe]

Skyguy,

I have had another idea. What if my problem is simply the RAM running out?
I know with this theory there is a problem on how it only freezes with the card in, but it might just be it.
I have noticed that when opening Skype, notorious for eating too much memory for just a chat program and playing Minecraft at the same time - that's when it freezes. Or most commonly then. If I'm just playing MC with nothing else open, barely any freezes.
Could this be possible? And is there any reason why it would only do that with the card in? Would buying two new sticks be the way to go? (Although they are DDR2)