Where has the magic gone?

[Epidemic]

The bible and history if filled with magic.

Pharoh had magician (sorcerer, wizzard what ever) who made a stick become a snake. Yet with all the sorcerers power moses's power was greater. now the key to this story is not that god was more powerful than pharoh. I find it interesting that pharoh had any magic. I should have expected a comedy sketch where pharohs wizzard dropped his staff and it hit the ground with a clang and bounce but remained a staff.

God felt compelled to blow up cities, flood worlds, turn people into salt because of corruption, but cities around the world seem to meet or exceed sodom and gamorah's best.

Today the best ~sorcerer (psychics) can maybe predict with 25% accuracy, bend a spoon, and or move a match under glass.

Where did all the magic go!

If god is the only true god the only magic in the world and all other magic was merely the fruit of fertile imagination or ignorance. This might make sense but for the bible's reference to non god generated magic.

So if the bible is the final word and magic exists outside the realm of god. Then where is that magic. Why are sticks not turned into snakes? How were arts like this lost to history? did god take the power away from man between 10th and 18th century?

Did the magic never exist but for word of mouth? Did the written chronicalling of history and more universal literacy kill magic?

[jman01pa]

I dont believe magic ever existed.

I think its a combination of illusion, imagination and literacy. Imagine what Blackstone, Henning and Copperfield could do in the days of old.

[Epidemic]

Taking the bible as fact.

Moses and pharohs minion did battle in public dropping staffs and producing serpents (who then did battle ) If biblical fact then not only did they create snakes but they also controlled them making them fight. Heck of a trick for two unrelated adversarial parties to pull off with out mirrors and pre planning.

[Zotzmein]

Some have suggested that the power of the Pharaoh’s sorcerers was divined from Satan; though Pharaoh did not knowingly worship the fallen angel, Lucifer was the source of their magic.

See davidamarkley comment toward the bottom of page one.

Who refuses to see "The Passion"?

Regards,
Zotz Mein

PS. I agree though, Where has the magic gone?

[Epidemic]

Ok that would be interesting if satan was the source. However I do not see any reference in the bible as to god stripping satan of his power so one would still assume that satan would still use such tricks to win converts to him.

[osprey4]

Satan is full of tricks but he prefers subtlety. Remember, no biblical description of Satan ever has him looking anything other than beautiful and compelling.

[Bovon]

IMO (and from what I have been taught), In the BC years, the peoples were controlled by God, by spirit and selected followers, such as Moses etc.

In this time, God did not ever appear in human form and sit down with humans. What humans got out of their beliefs was gained from the spirit thru the righteous followers who received instructions from God in dreams.

Humans made sacrifices to show that they believed in the "Holy Spirit" (God).

The spiritual leaders, such as Moses were given enormous power, based on their leadership, their strength in their own beliefs and their will to do battle with unbelievers, no matter who they were.

God gave these spiritual leaders the power needed as they combated the evil in others....such as the story about the snakes.

After Christ came to earth, and died on the cross...all sin was relieved of the human race. All that is necessary from that time was for any human to believe that Christ was the son of God, that he died to relieve all humans of the sins they inherited.

At this time, there would not be more leaders such as an all powerful 'Moses'...these leaders were not needed by the population to read and understand the teachings...remember, back in Moses day, there was no books, no real written language..no way for the leaders to teach the followers except by words spoken and by deeds...some of which were designed to be "magical" to force those on the fence to sit up and take notice.

After Christ came and went, AD years, the Old Testament was no more..that phase of Christianity was complete..it is retained in our Bibles as a reference only.

But, to sum it up...as I understand it, we are now governed by our ability to believe in Jesus as the son of God. Miracles are no longer permitted..it is "blind" faith that guides a Christian.

Also, there are "stories" in the Bible, that when read for face value, they can be taken as a real happening, when in fact..they are teachings for simple minded peoples.

Be careful as you read, if you are serious at all.

[Epidemic]

The concept of magic has been assaulted on many fronts AFAIAC.

I feel that Bad weather, plagues, and mental disorders were often attributed to magic or non natural/physical occurances. this and word of mouth (aka the telephone game) allows for magic in the past but not in a well documented educated world.

[John Prophet]

magic,voodoo,spells,incantations,demon possession,levitation,mind reading etc etc....all these things still exist...the people who do these things..whether they realize it or not, recieve the power from satan.

We have a hard time seeing it in our western societies because we just wont believe in it...same as people just refuse to believe in God....we are TOTALLY ruled by "rational thinking" over here...even to the point of sometimes refusing to believe what our eyes plainly see because our minds cant explain it. So a western mind has a hard time believing in either God or Satan.

Go to central-south America/Africa/the Orient/India/parts of europe...ask them if spellcasting/magic/charms etc exist and they will laugh and look at you as if you asked them if a taxi cab existed.

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Also, of course, miracles from God still exist...they are seen on occasion, again, not usually in western countries due to a total lack of belief/faith....also due to the fact that modern Christians are so compromised that the power of God just wont "run thru them"...in effect we are liked clogged water pipes, the power just wont flow. Its not that we are necessarilly "evil" or "bad" Christians...it's just that we are so caught up in things that compromise us and we dont realize it..no one preaches it and no one wants to admit it or see it. The preachers would rather make excuses for the lack of power even though they claim to follow the same God as in the book of acts.

I will give one tiny example of the type of compromise that weighs us down. THE PACE OF OUR MODERN LIVES. This is a major consideration that no one realizes..no one speaks about it..no one seems to try to do anything about it. But it is plain that the things of God take time to acquire...the knowledge in the bible must be meditated upon, it cant be learned in 15 minute readings twice a week...or by listening to a "sermon" while you drive in heavy traffic on the way to work,lol. We dont give it the time it requires and we feel okay about it cuz we reason it away and give ourselves excuses, saying in a whiney voice..."well, a man has to pay his bills".

We dont realize things like our tv watching...how it affects us. They finally just came out with a study showing how kids get attention defecit disorder from watching Tv....DUH!!!! The "pace" of TV and radio..with its BOOM BOOM BOOM speed and constant fast talking commercials TOTALLY militates AGAINST the quiet peaceful frame of mind needed to glean and absorb things from the bible....so we have preprogrammed ourselves to be shallow Christians. We have allowed satan himself to order our lives and we (as Christians) wonder why we have no power/peace/influence etc etc

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and I must admit that I am the worst of all, because I see all these things..yet I havent mustered the "wherewithal" to do anything much about it yet. ( I haven't given up though,lol)

JP

[Epidemic]

magic,voodoo,spells,incantations,demon possession,levitation,mind reading etc etc....all these things still exist...the people who do these things..whether they realize it or not, recieve the power from satan.

We have a hard time seeing it in our western societies because we just wont believe in it...same as people just refuse to believe in God....we are TOTALLY ruled by "rational thinking" over here...even to the point of sometimes refusing to believe what our eyes plainly see because our minds cant explain it. So a western mind has a hard time believing in either God or Satan.

Go to central-south America/Africa/the Orient/India/parts of europe...ask them if spellcasting/magic/charms etc exist and they will laugh and look at you as if you asked them if a taxi cab existed.

I would buy into that argument however the flip side of that is that the (typically) undereducated cultures where VooDoo are rampant are the same fertile grounds where myths of old began.

Under scientific scruitiny virtually all magic would appear to be false. when under scrutiny the magic just does not work. Like watching penn and teller on stage. some magic is unexplained but generally speaking no one today can make a stick into a snake either with satans help while the camera is rolling.

Even chemicals are implicated in the whole zombi thing.

All in all psychics seem to be terribly unpredictable under lab conditions, spoon benders the same. there are no people who transmute matter.

It would seem that magic only happens in front of belivers. Much the same as when people thought the sun was toted by a chariot, and when someone survives a brush with death in battle being attributed to the god of war or crops failing due to drought.

[John Prophet]

a truly "western" mind....lol, "under scrutiny", "lab conditions", "terribly unpredictable".....you are trying to fit things into a western mindset and they wont fit there...square peg, round hole

I dont know why, but this analogy popped in my head about magic being done "under scrutiny"......it's like asking can I seduce someone's daughter..yes, but not while her dad is sitting right there!

one of satan's main weapons...is...secrecy..stealth..subterfuge...yes, in primitive nations he can get away with being a bit more "open"...but how many "primitive" places are there anymore?? not too many.

so instead of working thru magic openly etc..he gets accomplishes his ends thru commercialism, socialism, busyness of people,shallow distractions etc etc ad infinitum.

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oh, by the way, CNN aint gonna run a special eveytime someone claims to do magic....there are so many huxsters etc, on the side of satanism and "religion" both...all the huxsters serve as a smoke screen for the real thing..as is part of satans strategy...you have to think "strategically" as if you were the devil himself and you were planning a strategy to concur and enslave the world and pull it away from being Godly.

If you have read the bible any, you see that Jesus did miracles RIGHT IN FRONT of many people...so did peter and paul...and all of them were killed, lol....and also all were accused of being fakes, especially Jesus, whom the jews STILL hold as being a liar and magician....so if they did miracles RIGHT IN FRONT OF PEOPLE....people SAW the miracles and STILL DIDNT BELIEVE....why is it spectacular that the same thing could happen today?

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also, by "transmuting" I am guessing you mean "making stuff appear"....I have not seen it, nor been there to see it....but evidently there are "holy men" in India who are widely revered for publicly doing that exact thing....for instance "Sai Baba" is said to do this often. (he's the dude with the massive "fro", lol)

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either way, I dont think you can try to assess "spiritual" things along "scientific" lines..it just doesnt work...by doing so you are trying to put HUMAN REASONING (science)..ABOVE..the spiritual thing you are trying to analyze. So if there is a "God" or a "satan" who in fact posseses all sorts of power...and you try to insult them by defining them on a meter...or making them perform a parlor trick for you..you are trying to assert yourself over them!! you are trying to define them and make yourself larger and more powerful than they are...it just wont work...I doubt either of them will "play along"

JP

[crazyray]

Where has the magic gone?

It currently can be found on the Showtime cable network in the form of Penn & Teller and their show "Bullsh*t!".




Sorry, I couldn't contain myself. I'm already ashamed. Please return to your erudite biblical discussion.

[Epidemic]

Under scrutiny = A voodoo priest says he can make be feel pain by sticking a doll with a pin. Yet there is no cases documented where a voodoo priest has been able to do same to oppressors like the french during slavery. Or more modern times like putting a hex on a sitting president of the US...

Under scrutiny = Beyond a reasonable probability, repeatability, doing to non believers. As believers can have a sympathetic response to suggestion.

Transmuting... I mean we are not talking about subtle magic here when someone creates a living snake out of wood in front of an audience. Also you will find that guys like this indian can not perform such feats in the presence of a camera or in a sealed room with non believers.

Faith implies believing with out reason or fact to support. Now with God this may be the requirement. But magic used to be a daily occurance (at least what you call the satanic kind) Where pharoh's priest would zap you or curse your family to have warts for the next 100 generations.

As for your last comment. God used to do parlor tricks all the time. However since the written word very few parlor tricks have been done. So satan felt compelled to do parlor tricks to teach the masses where they stand but now nothing, nada, zip except for a few hidden actions. we are not talking about satan directly either. We are talking about people who wield the power of satan and they wish to have people believe so they do have something to prove if they would like to get power over non believers.

[John Prophet]

---> However since the written word very few parlor tricks have been done

----> now nothing, nada, zip except for a few hidden actions.

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if there has ever been ONE miracle or ONE true "magic" act....what would that tell you?



I think you are missing the point a bit about the satanic power thing....I dont think the witches and warlocks..the true ones...are trying to stand on the corner quite yet and show off..not quite yet...stealth and secrecy is still the order of the day....and in america the method isnt to scare but to charm smoothly, lol....hence the EXPLOSIONNNNNNNNN of occultic Tv and movies...have you flipped the dial any lately and noticed all of it?? Every other show now has people with mutant powers...people casting spells, people being vampires, lol....look at the kids cartoons....everything with magic powers no less.

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Ill give u an example to ponder....let's say you are minding your own business sitting at your computer....you..a "non believer" in God or Jesus....okay, you are sitting there and all of a sudden out of nowhere..a demon appears with smoke and foul odor...he is glowing brightly and making things in the room levitate, lol....


okay, just think it through a little bit...if it ACTUALLY happened....




what would you do?





A large percentage of people would hi-tail it to the nearest church..or they would contact that Christian dude they have been putting down for so long and tell him about it......do you think that is what satan wants???????? So why SHOULD He show his wares publicly in America?? Why would he run that risk when he is doing so well now working thru television etc etc.

Now in the backwoods of Africa he might be more inclined to "show off" a bit...because he can capture the pople thru fear because, as u say, they r more primitive.....but when the camera crew comes in and sets up, will he perform then?? Doubtful.

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By the way...demon possessed people and exorcisms etc have surely been captured on film many many times...I suppose though that a true sceptic would say that the person just has serious psychosomatic issues??

JP

[Bovon]

Hmmm...lemme see if I can go buy another wee gee board, find me somebody to help with the cursor, and I may just be able to find some REAL answers!

`course, nobody would believe it, so may as well just pass on that idea...huh!

[Bovon]

Hey guys!!.. I found it!!..I found where the magic went!..I really found it!

[Solid Snake]

I don't think the magic was ever there but just kept getting exaggerated through word of mouth over the ages to become something outrageous.