Elimination of public school education system.

[Epidemic]

Fellar here in the office strikes again. He contends that america would be better and more productive if all redistribution of wealth was eliminated.

I contend that american school system is broken and school vouchers are the best solution.

He contends that he a single guy should not have to support my kids in public school system.

I then state that millions of kids would not be educated thereby eliminating them as viable participants in the economy (aka they wont buy his widgets)

He retorts something that I have a hard time refuting. He says that inefficent government education produces a product where 40% of people are failing. for a tremendous price. He thinks if people had to provide funding for their kids they would either homeschool or find a few thousand bucks out of their budget and the kids would be educated in greater numbers at higher levels. People would be forced to be responsible for how many kids they have. So is it better to have a society where education is available to all with 60% moderately educated, or a privately funded sector where education is superior for the same 60%.

I am torn by the concept. I like vouchers because they take funding from failing organizations producing a better education infrastructure. But I find intrinsic value in the masses being educated. If for nothing else than to find the pearl among swine. totally forsaking those who can not afford education would probably leave an Einstein shoveling out ditches rather than being discovered.

He contends that Einstein would have risen to the top in all likelyhood and educated himself.

where do you feel the truth lies.

[RayH]

Why educate anyone? They're just going to wind up living homeless on the streets anyway! I once saw some black and white picutres of homeless people in America. It finally struck me that we are sinking to levels once only thought to be that of developing nations!

[TOAD6147]

The only way to ensure that children are educated and have equal access to equal education is to ensure that the government makes it mandatory and oversees the management. It ain't perfect but neither is vouchering. And to imply that vouchering by itself will ensure a superior education is a pipe dream. The truth lies between the ones that throw money at the system and the ones that say it doesn't work or doesn't work efficiently. The truth lies where we have a professionally managed system that doesn't answer directly via politics. Why don't we voucher roads and bridges while we're at it? Why doesn't your friend find a problem with I-95 or I-4 or I-10 which he probably never uses but surely helps fund and maintain? There are many that ride bikes and feel cheated because they help fund them as well. The truth lies where your friend can't see, for the greater good rather than the "for me" good.

[ShawnD1]

Your friend makes an excellent point. Although we do have education, and many people graduate from higschool, it seems totally pointless.

Most people don't retain what they learned in school.
According to DHMO.org, 86% of Gen Chem 2 students at University of Notre Dame support a ban for DHMO (water). That is enough to tell us that the system is broken. These are university chemistry students and they either can't remember what "di" and "mono" mean or they don't know what the chemical formula for water is.
It may seem practical to learn math, chemistry, physics, and biology, but not many people will actually remember what they learned. There's no point in fueling up if there is a big hole in the gas tank.

Most people don't use highschool knowledge.
Of all the jobs highschool grads have, how many actually use school information? I was a tech helper for a few years; I never once used anything I learned in school. I worked at McDonalds before; no use for school there. Even in first year of Mechanical Engineering, most of the people around me did not use info given to them in school. In engineering, there was a small unit on how to find centroids (centre of mass) for different 2D shapes, and it required the use of various areas and distances usually done with a table. What I did was input the areas in my calculator as L1, and the centroids for those single areas as L2, then find the centroid of the entire shape with this formula: c = (Sum(L1*L2)) / (Sum(L1)). Not 1 person in my study group (other than myself) understood what that meant or how it worked even though we were all required to know what that means in highschool. They were amazed that my method got the correct answer every time.

People decide if they want to go to university years before they go.
People in support of public education think that slackers will suddenly see the light and attend university to become great scientists.
The truth is that people who go to university have planned on going for quite some time, that's why they actually try in school. I planned on going to university since I was 12; that's 11 years before it actually happened. The people who don't try in school, and slack off when they get the chance have never thought about going to university, so what's the point in teaching them information they won't use?

High school is merely a stepping stone to get to post secondary education. If one does not plan on going to university or trade school, there is no reason to attend high school.

Summary:
-High school students don't remember what they learn
-High school graduates do not use the information they learned at school
-Slackers very rarely get to university (unless they have high up connections *cough* Bush)
-High school is useful for those who plan to go to univeristy, but alone, high school is useless.

So say again why education should be public?

[Redwolf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShawnD1

Summary:
-High school students don't remember what they learn
-High school graduates do not use the information they learned at school
-Slackers very rarely get to university (unless they have high up connections *cough* Bush)
-High school is useful for those who plan to go to univeristy, but alone, high school is useless.

So say again why education should be public?

1) You'd be suprised. Most of these 'polls' don't count on the fact that confronted with this, with a loaded queston like the DHMO one, it's hard to say with certainty, so most people simply say what makes sense so they can get on with their lives without being pestered by such polls. If the question was "Do youy support a ban of H20?", then you'd find most people know what that is. DHMO? Sounds like the Deadly HMO to me

Alot of what you learn in high school you forget, true. But alot of it you remember too. You may not remember what the post-moderns were all about or what the cosecant of theta is equivalent too, but you remember somethign someone else has a hard time remembering. Just because the average guy doesn't remember how to divide a polynomial doesn't mean our entire educational system is a failure.

2) I beg to differ. From what I've seen of those older than me they use things they learned in HS alot. Especially Algebra (whether or not they realize it).

3) Heh. What does it have to do with High Schools? Slackers aren't going to get anywhere in life without initiative anyway (unless they are *really* good at sports, and even then). At least that's my observation.

4) With the vocational classes taught in High School nowadays, that would be a big negatory there. You can get lots of work experience in high school should you choose. They are starting to get some modernized courses as well, such as integrating 3D modeling into Drafting courses and kicking the Auto shop courses up a notch.

Education should be public because an educated mass is not as easily influenced as an uneducated one. May not seem like it today (with the mass media and all), but it's true. At least that's my opinion. Also, many very successful people never went to College (or dropped out of college).

[The Real Bingo]

I think you have the impression of high school all wrong. It is not so much to learn your math, grammar, or biology, but to build yourself as a person. You go to school to get the good grades and go to college, but that's not what it's all about. It's a learning experience more in a social way than academically.

Whatever you want to do when you grow up, chances are you will need that high school diploma, however once you get past high school, your future lies in specialized education. Many, many jobs out there don't utilize what you have learned in high school, and sometimes college is rendered worthless.

I believe college is more pointless than high school. Many times someone will go to a university not knowing what they want to become, and when the finally decide on a career it is something totally different than what they spend a whole lot of money going to school for.

High school is the basic foundation of what the future holds for that student. High school teaches responsibility more than anything, and it also shows strengths and/or weaknesses in a person's work eithic. I think how you fair in high school will ultimately determine how you will either succeed or fail in life.

[super gerbil]

I think the public school system is really messed up. Firstof all, in some of the classes all we do is just sit and read because the teacher didn't prepare anything

and most of the things they teach us are things we should have already known and which I am some other students know. But they don't put us in any higher classes.

[ShawnD1]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redwolf

with a loaded queston like the DHMO one, it's hard to say with certainty

How is it a loaded question? Every single one of the "facts" on that DHMO site is true. Water is an industrial coolant. It's a major factor in acid rain (the rain portion ). Inhalation of gaseous DHMO (steam) is very dangerous.
That DHMO poll isn't more misleading than any other poll.

Quote:

2) I beg to differ. From what I've seen of those older than me they use things they learned in HS alot. Especially Algebra (whether or not they realize it).

[RayH]

There has always been a public uproar about educating the great unwashed. It is not the role of the government to fund private education. If people want private education, pay for it themselves. It's like public roads, everyone pays for them whether or not you drive on them.

Society benefits from public education. Someone who was publicly educated makes tremendous contributions to society!

[ShawnD1]

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Real Bingo

I think you have the impression of high school all wrong. It is not so much to learn your math, grammar, or biology, but to build yourself as a person. You go to school to get the good grades and go to college, but that's not what it's all about. It's a learning experience more in a social way than academically.

My own experience is exactly opposite of that. I was a popular kid before high schoool because my friends took the same classes (everybody takes the same classes before high school). When high school came, I was in the matriculation classes but all of my friends were in remedial classes. I immediately became an outcast because I wasn't a slacker but all my friends were. The slackers made their own cliques and started to resent people in matriculation classes who got better grades.

Quote:

Whatever you want to do when you grow up, chances are you will need that high school diploma