Republicans push for desctruction of...

[chipbgt]

The IRS

"“If you own property, stock, or, say, one hundred acres of farmland and tax time is approaching, you don’t want to make a mistake, so you’re almost obliged to go to a certified public accountant, tax preparer, or tax attorney to help you file a correct return. That costs a lot of money. Now multiply the amount you have to pay by the total number of people who are in the same boat. You can’t. No one can because precise numbers don’t exist. But we can stipulate that we’re talking about a huge amount. Now consider that a flat tax, national sales tax, or VAT would not only eliminate the need to do this, it could also eliminate the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) itself and make the process of paying taxes much easier."

[J-Excel]

Gets my vote. I feel so strongly about this right now that I'd even vote for Kerry if he promised a flat tax. I screwed my taxes up 3 years running. Just got a letter this week saying I owe Uncle Sam another $1200 + interest. And they were nice enough to give me 2 weeks to pay it.

[RADAR1797]

Let's get started!

-RADAR

[CERuppel]

Unfortunately, the flat tax would have to be set alot higher than most people think. The last time I read about this, the flat tax needed to be over forty percent. (Been a while, so exact number eludes me).

As for the VAT/National sales tax, just take one look at who buys more general merchandise: 200+ million low and lower middle income citizens, or the 2-3 million 'rich' citizens. As it stands now, those in the 'rich' catagory pay nearly half of all income taxes, while the rest of us pay the other half. Under this new system, whether you are rich or poor you would pay the same... Note: A VAT would help to keep things from getting completely out of hand, but unless the 'rich' somehow account for half of the general merchandise purchases it would only help a little.

In short; This is just another Republican hand out to the 'rich'.

[RADAR1797]

I would love to read the analysis you read CERuppel. If a flat tax were implemented at only income over say the for $20000 it would have minimal impact on the poor and middle class. As for a VAT or national sales tax to work, all transactions would have to be charged, including payments of interest, purchase/sale of stocks and so on otherwise you would be right it would be skewed to people below $200K/year of income/spending.

-RADAR

[John Prophet]

while they are at it, they need to get rid of the "federal" reserve...all we are doing is making the rich independent bank owners more rich...while they contract or expand the money supply to their whim.

they need to send the "monster" back to Jekyll Island where it started....

[MTAtech]

We already have a flat-tax! What conservatives always conveniently focus on is income taxes while ignoring the payroll taxes that only working people pay. These taxes, for many people, are higher than income taxes. When they are included, the taxes are rather flat across the income brackets. See the third graph from the link below:
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaver...lo/payroll.htm

Also, from Slate:
http://slate.msn.com/id/2077294/

"The bottom fifth pays 18 percent, the top fifth pays 19 percent, and the three groups in between pay between 14 percent and 17 percent—which is to say, roughly the same. Obviously there's some individual variation, but on average Americans pay approximately 17 percent of their income in taxes, no matter what income they earn."

The problem with flat-taxes and value added taxes is that they are regressive – meaning that the burden shifts to those least able to afford it. Wealthy people would use about 5% of their money on items subject to the value added tax while poor people will be subject to about 90% since they spend almost all of their income on every-day items.

The best tax system is one where everyone pays according to their ability to pay. These are progressive tax systems. It allows for rich people to still enjoy a comfortable lifestyle while allowing the middleclass and below to carry less of a burden.

It is no suprise Republicans favor flat-taxes and VAT because it will mean that the rich will pay less and everyone else would pay more.

[RADAR1797]

We already have a flat-tax! What conservatives always conveniently focus on is income taxes while ignoring the payroll taxes that only working people pay. These taxes, for many people, are higher than income taxes. When they are included, the taxes are rather flat across the income brackets. See the third graph from the link below:
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaver...lo/payroll.htm

Also, from Slate:
http://slate.msn.com/id/2077294/


The problem with flat-taxes and value added taxes is that they are regressive – meaning that the burden shifts to those least able to afford it. Wealthy people would use about 5% of their money on items subject to the value added tax while poor people will be subject to about 90% since they spend almost all of their income on every-day items.

The best tax system is one where everyone pays according to their ability to pay. These are progressive tax systems. It allows for rich people to still enjoy a comfortable lifestyle while allowing the middleclass and below to carry less of a burden.

It is no suprise Republicans favor flat-taxes and VAT because it will mean that the rich will pay less and everyone else would pay more.

MTA,

I one breath you you state the current system is a flat tax and then you state the flat tax would be regressive. So which is it? Also, if all federal taxes (FICA, Medicare, income, etc...) were reduced to a postcard sized form filed annually, wouldn't there be huge savings to the tax payer? Removing the monlithic IRS and most of the beaurocrats involved would really improve the efficiency of the government. Oh wait you would then accuse the Republicans of destroying good jobs.

-RADAR

[Pexster]

MTA, that's not necessarily true. It all depends on the level at which the exempt "floor" is set (assuming there is one). RADAR threw out $20,000 as a starting point. But to take the concept to an extreme, let's say the exempt income level was $500,000. What would be the tax rate necessary to fund everything at it's current level? 90% 99%? Or would it even be possible?

My point is that it may be possible to have a flat tax that is not regressive in it's impact.

[ooops]

All I know is that I'm paying less taxes under the Bush Administration than I was under Clinton's.

They've talked about this FLAT tax stuff for years , the downside of of reducing the IRS or eliminating it is the "lay-off" of employees.

[MTAtech]

MTA,

I one breath you you state the current system is a flat tax and then you state the flat tax would be regressive. So which is it? Also, if all federal taxes (FICA, Medicare, income, etc...) were reduced to a postcard sized form filed annually, wouldn't there be huge savings to the tax payer? Removing the monlithic IRS and most of the beaurocrats involved would really improve the efficiency of the government. Oh wait you would then accuse the Republicans of destroying good jobs.

-RADAR

I didn't want to write a book but yours is a fair question that I will explain my point. The income tax is progressive but the payroll tax is violently regressive. Taken together, the sum is relatively flat. However, proposals to create a flat-tax address only the income tax. So, if a flat income tax existed with the current payroll tax, the future would be that working people will pay a significantly higher percentage of their income to taxes than rich people that live off their investments and dividends.

Moreover, there is talk of raising payroll taxes even more and that makes it even worse.

All I know is that I'm paying less taxes under the Bush Administration than I was under Clinton's.

They've talked about this FLAT tax stuff for years , the downside of of reducing the IRS or eliminating it is the "lay-off" of employees.

I don't know how much that is in dollars. My taxes went down a couple thousand. Most people got a few hundred. The average of millionaires got $90,000. However, it increased the debt that must be paid by my kids or me after I retire. Wait till we get the bill. See this:
Studies Say Tax Cuts Now Will Bring Bigger Bill Later

[uethello]

I owe Uncle Sam another $1200 + interest

Ouch! Been there

[nochay]

It allows for rich people to still enjoy a comfortable lifestyle while allowing the middleclass and below to carry less of a burden.

why don't the rich people pay the damn taxes? They have enough money to throw around, and bully us with. I don't see rich people donating to charitys, helping the homeless, needy, and so much more. Oprah to me is a true millionaire who does good with her money. Lowry Mays,Jack Welch, and so many other corporate losers set up tricky off shore systems that insure they can avoid taxes, because of being based in the bahamas. When was the last time you heard about clear channel donating a war chest of cash to build a new homeless shelter? improve the quality of our schools? rebuild a urban area that needs a rebuilding? Do not come to me about bs programs like "clear channel cares" or garbage like that. They don't care. If they did, they would be shut down and put into the trash can like enron. How am I supposed to believe a companies intentions are "pure" to rebuild a community when their radio stations carry a bunch of republican trash? They have loonies like Rush Limbaugh, and my personal favorite, Dr "Take a paddle to a kid" Laura.

The rich people should foot the bill for the (censored) taxes. They lobbied to push the taxes up so we endure a hassle, and they can sit back in a million dollar mansion and smoke a imported cuban cigar while the house across the street is foreclosed because the owners can't afford a house payment and paying off the taxes they got walloped with!

These evil pricks break our backs, lobby to get taxes jacked up, get laws passed pretty much cutting us down to nothing, and we should have to pay taxes? We are no better then when we left england. Fuel taxes are high, several mom and pop gas stations that could wash your windows and pump a tank of gas no longer exist, due to a evil system that only allows big business to run a gas station! Come on! Bring it on! To feel more complete as a american citizen, I want a cylinder tax, a fuel injector tax, a Engine Liter tax, a tax depending on how many oxygen sensors I have on my car, oh, and for the hell of it, why not a door handle tax? Oh my god, I happen to have a four door car, and it happens to have a tail gate also! Quick, lay down that tail gate tax on me also. Why not a tinted window tax and a untinted window tax? Don't want you escaping either way! Oh, and if you break all your windows out, then we also have a "broken window tax" Since your car will be so taxed, that also includes your key ring. Do you carry house keys with your car keys? Yep, you guessed it, each key has a tax also! Since it is considered a taxable item, this extends to your house also. How many door knobs do you have? doors? Start counting, it's time to pay uncle sam! Oh, and since we are also concerned about making money, err helping the enviroment, do you have a leaky faucet? Simply send us $500 to 1600 pennsylvania avenue for a mandatory counter that measures drop by drop, how much water is dripping out. You will not see anything, this is a "faucet black box" that uploads the amount of drips to a US spy satellite parked over your house listening to your conversations (oops, did we say that?) and then will send you a tax bill. Under this new tax structure, we will be able to catch terrorists, and maybe a good steak dinner for the president!

Under this system of evil, small business can no longer own a gas station, or take a enormous risk of not breaking even, getting bullied by big oil and being limited to who they can purchase the gas from to keep the people pulling in. If you think I am a crack pot, smoking a big load of crack, consider this. Why do we not see any different gas stations? Drive down a damn city street, and see the following:

Texaco
Chevron
Shell
Exxon
Mobil

Drive down a street in the 1950's, and you could see many different brands of gas for sale.

Mohawk Gasoline
Owl Gasoline

And so on. Come on, you had a choice then. You had variety. Oh, and big deal about the stations you see today, you have no variety, since alot of them own each other. Gasoline in the early days could even be sold outside drug stores! Look your history up, and really look at what has happened to the petrol industry.

Don't get all weepy with me and start whipping out profit margins, total running costs of a corporation, etc. It is all trash, gently spun to make you believe the company is doing no wrong. If enron did not teach you anything, then put your tin foil hat back on and hide in your house, fearful of your mailbox shooting bags of anthrax at you.

Why does walmart insist on pounding into my brain that "good works" when they do absolutely nothing that qualifies as good? "We didn't know that company hired illegal aliens to clean our stores" "We don't hassle women, and bypass women who have more seniority and time in the job to give some socially retarded texas hick a manager job who only last week just graduated from stocking in GE Light Bulbs in hardware" "We don't go into a small town, build a super walmart, drop the prices so low, run out the small mom and pop stores that EARNED the right to be in the community, and when the last one leaves, we jack the prices sky high, because we can" "We don't go to the supplier for the mom and pop stores and force them to charge higher prices for a case of ranch dressing, because that would be price fixing" "We don't monopolize a market with walmarts, and just because we get denied by city counsel that we can't build a super walmart, we just throw our hands up, give in, and build a baby walmart. 6 months later, we apply for, and recieve a construction permit to extend the walmart, and presto! We have a super walmart. That isn't our style at all to be sneaky and forcing ourselves into a community"

Point is, these sorry ass excuses for companys brutally murder us each day, shutting down just one more place that we could get variety at, lobby for more taxes, so they don't have to take any burden at all, and break our middle class backs. It is a sad state of affairs when you are better off being some rich out of control bottom feeding land raping CEO, or being on welfare and selling crack cocaine in a middle class tax payer dollars funded city park. Explain this logic to me why you are better off screwing over the middle class or running your own version of "pfizer" urban style?

This country is seriously screwed up, and it will take alot of work and quite possibly using their weapons of dishonesty against themselves to cleanse ourselves of these money sucking corporate leaches!