Report finds Iraq prospects bleak

[pickel]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/09/17/us....tel/index.html

The Bush administration, however, continues to argue publicly the U.S. is making good progress in Iraq, with the President saying Thursday that "freedom is on the march" in Iraq, citing scheduled elections in January next year.

"I think that anybody that thinks that you can hold elections in the Sunni Triangle by the end of January is really smoking something," military historian Frank Fukuyama said.


Will this man ever admit his failures ????? While he's lying his way back into the Whitehouse, our young boys are dying and getting maimed. The man has no shame.

[MTAtech]

It should be apparent to anyone with a brain that Bush&Co are a gang of liars.

[Toddly]

Yes, things don't seem to be going to plan. You don't really think that they would admit failure at this time do you? But,we did get rid of an evil dictator.

[Hungrycookpot]

Should be, but a lot of intellegent people can't see this for some reason.

[cbuddha42]

alright I guess I will point out the obvious

a) the qoutes from the report that appear in the article say absolutly nothing. any idiot could have told you that the situation in Iraq would range from "tenuous peace" to civil war (I think thats what it said) when we first decided to go in, why is this considered news? another gem:

But the intelligence report raises serious questions about Iraq's ability to achieve political solutions in the next year or two, noting the country's "limited experience with representative government" and "history of violence".

wow Iraq has limited experiance with democracy? thanks for telling me! really folks setting up a government is hard and takes time, doesn't mean its not a good idea though.

b) it has nothing to do with having no shame, if you expect him to announce that Iraq was a flop and he screwed up while hes in the middle of trying to get rellected then you must know nothing of american politics

[Hungrycookpot]

um, wouldnt that qualitfy as having no shame? No shame about lying to the american public to get eelected?

[brandon184]

wow Iraq has limited experiance with democracy? thanks for telling me! really folks setting up a government is hard and takes time, doesn't mean its not a good idea though.

So how many lives and hundreds of billions of dollars is it going to take before Iraq can finally be convinced that a democracy is actually what they want?

Brandon

[pickel]

alright I guess I will point out the obvious

a) the qoutes from the report that appear in the article say absolutly nothing. any idiot could have told you that the situation in Iraq would range from "tenuous peace" to civil war (I think thats what it said) when we first decided to go in, why is this considered news? another gem:

wow Iraq has limited experiance with democracy? thanks for telling me! really folks setting up a government is hard and takes time, doesn't mean its not a good idea though.

b) it has nothing to do with having no shame, if you expect him to announce that Iraq was a flop and he screwed up while hes in the middle of trying to get rellected then you must know nothing of american politics

The war ended over a year ago, so say Mr. Bush....on the aircraft carrier. We just have a FEW thugs causing all the problemo. My friend , you need to come out of your dream world and check out reality once in a while.

[cbuddha42]

The war ended over a year ago, so say Mr. Bush....on the aircraft carrier. We just have a FEW thugs causing all the problemo. My friend , you need to come out of your dream world and check out reality once in a while.

huh? Yes the war offically ended over a year ago; what does this have to do with the situation in iraq being compleatly predictable and the article and what it gives us of the report saying nothing important? everyone knew that there was still alot of fighting to come when Bush declared the war over too.

So how many lives and hundreds of billions of dollars is it going to take before Iraq can finally be convinced that a democracy is actually what they want?

bottom line? lots
Who ever said that Iraq as a whole wanted democracy anyway? They probably do if you acutally went and polled everyone but thats besides the point. Its not a matter of convincing them thats what they want, its a matter of forcing it on them.

and finally
No I wouldn't consider exagerating the truth and spinning everything you can as much as you can while trying to get elected in America as "having no shame," and if you do then its completely non unique

edit to make second quote work

[MTAtech]

b) it has nothing to do with having no shame, if you expect him to announce that Iraq was a flop and he screwed up while hes in the middle of trying to get rellected then you must know nothing of american politics

What the CIA report is saying is that Iraq is a flop and Bush screwed up. So, even if Bush won't admit it while trying to get re-elected it doesn't mean we have to fall for the trick and re-elect him.


This from a letter-to-the editior, in Newsday, "John Kerry's campaign may need sharpening, but his real problem is one familiar to any police fraud squad; it is often very hard to persuade victims of scams to acknowledge that they have been had, and so they still love the political con artists who are getting us ever deeper into the Big Muddy."

[brandon184]

bottom line? lots
Who ever said that Iraq as a whole wanted democracy anyway? They probably do if you acutally went and polled everyone but thats besides the point. Its not a matter of convincing them thats what they want, its a matter of forcing it on them.

How old are you? Do you pay taxes?

[Rand Dusing]

I don't pay taxes except on stuff I buy.

[butch81385]

so all of you would rather pull out all of our troops, isolate ourselves in our country, and pretend this didnt happen. then all the people who DID give up there lives over there would have died for nothing.
[/braveheart themesong]
i dont know about you, but people gave up their lives, and I feel that if we pulled out now, they gave up there lives for nothing, but if we continue to fight; we continue to struggle until we have our freedom, and they have theirs, then on that day, all those people who died will not have died in vain, but would have died for the betterment of mankind [/end braveheart themesong]

ok, now you are all free to pick apart what i said, try to publicly humiliate me, and personally attack me for my views, i figure i might as well give you permission since you will do it anyways

[cbuddha42]

How old are you? Do you pay taxes?

I am 93 and 2/3 years old and currently on the run from the IRS because I refuse to pay taxes!

Is this true? NO! Im not 93 and I do pay taxes. The point? How old I am and whether or not I pay taxes is compleatly irrelivent unless you mean to make the profoundly ageist implication that younger people know less about and are less qualified to comment on foreign affairs. The only other semblance of a connection I can draw from your post is that I should be angry because my tax dollars are funding operations in Iraq. Im not upset because I was never under the impression that Iraq would be a quick little 3 month affair and eveyone would love us for it. We are however digressing from the topic and my original post which simply stated that a)this article is unimportant becuase it provides no new information and b)you should expect political candidates to exagerate/bend the trutch/lie/whatever you want to call it for that particular candidate.

[brandon184]

Forgive me about requesting about your age and tax-paying status, but I asked because;

a) You have the spelling and grammar abilities of a 4th grader.

b) Most who pay taxes are concerned about where their tax dollars are going. It seems that you really couldn't care less if takes millions, billions or trillions more to restore Iraq. The taxing situation could have you living on the street, but as long as Iraq has been restored - that's fine.

Im not upset because I was never under the impression that Iraq would be a quick little 3 month affair and eveyone would love us for it.

I don't think anyone was under that impression. But I think that if G.W. had been honest and said how much this was all going to ACTUALLY cost, people would have thought twice about how much research had been done into this issue.

Brandon

[MTAtech]

The report conclusions are similar to this: Report: Civil war most likely outcome in Iraq

The basic point being that the Iraq adventure is a failure. Bush was given this report in July but still tells America that everything is going well to hide a report that said that the key piece of his presidency is a failure. I'm not ok with that. That is downright misleading and dishonest.

[cbuddha42]

Forgive me about requesting about your age and tax-paying status, but I asked because;

a) You have the spelling and grammar abilities of a 4th grader.

b) Most who pay taxes are concerned about where their tax dollars are going. It seems that you really couldn't care less if takes millions, billions or trillions more to restore Iraq. The taxing situation could have you living on the street, but as long as Iraq has been restored - that's fine.



I don't think anyone was under that impression. But I think that if G.W. had been honest and said how much this was all going to ACTUALLY cost, people would have thought twice about how much research had been done into this issue.

Brandon

Hey with phrases like "requesting about your age," your ESL courses must have been as poor as my grammar courses! Maybe we should consider uniting on education reform!!

I am concerned with where the government spends money, but I dont expect them to tell me the truth about it. I think most peoples' problem is they didnt allow for Bush is fairly incompetent at running a war, but I figured he would be so no surprise there.

Oh and if I was taxed into the gutter, I would be quite upset

Edited to spell stuff right; I was switching out my ‘a’s and ‘e’s in endings, particularly of grammar related words and most conspicuously in the word grammar itself, and several other things in my posts to Brandon, but he just wasnt catching on.

[pickel]

Who ever said that Iraq as a whole wanted democracy anyway? They probably do if you acutally went and polled everyone but thats besides the point. Its not a matter of convincing them thats what they want, its a matter of forcing it on them.

Seems I've heard some king of babble like that from G. W. Bush or was that Donald Rumsfeld or was that Condolesa Rice. How, with open arms, the Iraqi people will seize upon the moment amd hand in hand , we will establish domestic tranquility, etc., etc., etc.

Brandon, leave the guy alone, it's obvious that it will take another 1000 of our guys for him to realize what in the world is going on.

[MTAtech]

so all of you would rather pull out all of our troops, isolate ourselves in our country, and pretend this didnt happen. then all the people who DID give up there lives over there would have died for nothing.
[/braveheart themesong]
i dont know about you, but people gave up their lives, and I feel that if we pulled out now, they gave up there lives for nothing.

I saw that same mindset during Vietnam. In 1967, 25,000 soldiers were dead. When the U.S. pulled out in 1973, 58,000 soldiers were dead. We didn't know anything more in 1973 that we didn't know in 1967, yet we sacrificed more soldiers so that the first group wouldn't have been seen as dying in vane.

The first 1,000 soldiers to die in Iraq died because of Bush's mistakes and failures. They are already dead and we can't change that. We can however make sure that more thousands do not die for the same mistakes and failures.

Bush lied to the American people and cooked the intelligence to start the war. This should be the subject of attention.

[cbuddha42]

Seems I've heard some king of babble like that from G. W. Bush or was that Donald Rumsfeld or was that Condolesa Rice. How, with open arms, the Iraqi people will seize upon the moment amd hand in hand , we will establish domestic tranquility, etc., etc., etc.

Brandon, leave the guy alone, it's obvious that it will take another 1000 of our guys for him to realize what in the world is going on.

Its all about expectations, I didn’t expect for the real world to mirror Bush’s speeches of one big happy family, so Im not upset when it doesn’t. And just for the record it would take another 500 guys not 1000 to “wake me up.” Why? Simple, before the war I thought about it and said “you know what? It will probably take Bush 1500 lives to deal with Iraq because hell botch the cleanup and rebuild phases while trying not to anger the world.” Would I prefer less people got killed in the process? Sure, who wouldnt?

Ultimately you have to realize that all politicians twist and stretch and sometimes outright lie to try and shape the facts to provide outright support for their ideas and make their opponents look stupid. If you believe what comes out of a politician’s mouth then you will end up wrong and pissed of, just the way it works. Is it the best system? Nope, but it’s how it works in America.

MTAtech gets closer to the right idea at the end of his post. Bush cooking intelligence is a uniquely bad lie because the American public is far less informed on the issue than on others, and even for people who wanted to be informed, many of the reports were/are confidential. If you want to vote him out for his “failure” in Iraq then thats fine, but dont be deluded into thinking that it’s a failure because more died than Bush’s original estimates. You must decide on your own how many troops it was acceptable to lose and then look at how many have been lost. My initial point was that this report offers no new information on the situation in Iraq for people to determine if we have made sufficient progress.