Catholicism, Virgin mary, Saints...

**Epidemic** · April 11th, 2005, 09:04 AM

When did it become the practice of praying to the virgin mary, did jesus suggest this was a valid religious practice?

Same goes for saints. where do the saints with special powers come from? Like the saints of health, lost items... You can pray to saint... and poof your keys will appear.

**aldtech** · April 11th, 2005, 09:14 AM

That stuff has been around for a long time as in hundreds of years. It is a tool that the church has used to assimilate other religions that had deities for specific problems or situations. Some of this goes all the way back to the first days of Christianity. A lot of the religious holidays between some of the major religions are the same as well.

.

**Epidemic** · April 11th, 2005, 09:21 AM

I would think that the catholic church would frown on such things. You might use it as a tool to acquire pagan cultures, but after a few hundred years I would think it would be corrected by edict of the pope.

The praying to mary does not seem to meet the pagan ritual thingy too well. Mary gets relatively little playtime in the bible, yet people pray to her, perhapse more than jesus or god.

**Theophylact** · April 11th, 2005, 09:43 AM

Seems kind of foolish to be pointing out the "flaws" in somebody else's religion.

Any religion that's been around for a while has a lot of believers who've studied it deeply, and have the fanciest conceivable philosophical rationalizations (or "reasons", if you prefer) for the minutest elements of doctrine and practice, whereas you're not only an outsider, you're a rank amateur.

Richard Feynmann, who was no slouch, said that he had no hope whatsoever of winning an argument with Orthodox Jewish students, because they had a well-documented answer for everything and were at least as smart as he was. My guess is you could say the same for well-educated Catholics.

**Epidemic** · April 11th, 2005, 10:16 AM

Well that might be but you can shut up now

As you are apparently a rank amature at reading. The question is based upon observation and my obvious lack of knowledge in this arena. Therefore you obnoxious comments do not really add anything to this thread. But thank your for coming.

**RedFury** · April 11th, 2005, 10:28 AM

Originally Posted by Epidemic

When did it become the practice of praying to the virgin mary, did jesus suggest this was a valid religious practice?

Same goes for saints. where do the saints with special powers come from? Like the saints of health, lost items... You can pray to saint... and poof your keys will appear.

Never understood that either. Apparently someone must have needed a day off from prayer requests or something, and it just kinda stayed that way

**Theophylact** · April 11th, 2005, 10:40 AM

Originally Posted by Epidemic

Well that might be but you can shut up now

As you are apparently a rank amature at reading. The question is based upon observation and my obvious lack of knowledge in this arena. Therefore you obnoxious comments do not really add anything to this thread. But thank your for coming.

I guess you mean the smiley as in "Smile when you say that, pardner."

I can read just fine, thanks.

Your amateur status doesn't excuse your boorishness, and your pretense that you're merely trying to inform yourself doesn't, either. But you are free, of course, to expose yourself as a boor and an ignoramus; enjoy yourself.

Imagine the presence of a smiley if you think it appropriate.

**Epidemic** · April 11th, 2005, 10:55 AM

OOOOO, we are just in such a snotty mood today are we not. I may be boorish but you are being snide and obnoxious. If you do not like my post then read on elsewhere. Contrary to your analysis (which is flawed) this is a request for enlightenment. What I take from the responses may vary but you my self proclaimed intellectual knower of all that is knowable are not able to determine what I am thinking. So in actuallity you are being the ignoramus your ability to read my mind is really beyond your abilities sir. Get stuffed

PS: I put in the smiley to show you that I am amused by your post. Although I am also somewhat annoyed so here is a

frown for you as well.

Perhaps the proper icon for my post would be something akin to this.

I am surprised at the venom you spit at me while

amused with your arrogant psychic attempt to know what I am thinking and finally

annoyed with your tone and obvious attack on another member / thread crap.

Have a nice day

**sharder8** · April 11th, 2005, 11:01 AM

Theo --

IMHO, you're way out of line in this thread.

IMHO, Epi has a ligitimate question and is looking for an answer to that question.

The main ways to learn, are by reading and asking questions . . . so if you have the answer or can add some suggested reading to help Epi and others find the answer . . . post them. If you don't have anything constructive to add to the thread . . . don't post.

Harder

**aldtech** · April 11th, 2005, 11:13 AM

I don't thin Theo's comments where that out of line to be deserving of Epi's reply and Theo's redress, I guess both are on short fuses today. Maybe a Mod should cap this thread and Epi should just start again.

(Genuine smile to communicate an honest thought.)

.

**Epidemic** · April 11th, 2005, 11:18 AM

I have done the reading of the old king james and do not see it. So I was kinda interested in the respones of those who do pray to mary. Why use a middle man/woman when praying.

If you lose your keys you pray to Zita and you shall find them. My wife told me that Grandma in law Ruth had lost her keys and she prayed to the saint and then found them.

Now of course I have a rational solution to this problem, the keys were under the laundry the whole time and she decided to look there.

But it begged the question in my mind how did the saints get assigned there respective power. Pray to saint jude and your child will be healed and pray to Zita to find your keys. When she died in 1272 and even when canonized in 1696 I would guess the only people with keys would have been kings, and bankers and jailers. How does a saint get associated with a task so obscure as helping the king find his keys?

And of course the bigger question why would you pray to people below jesus and god to accomplish any daily task when I though it pretty straight forward that you pray to god to get things done. Now I may not be a big believer but I am continually perplexed by the deviations from the bible in a religion based upon the bible.

Pork bad - pork ok
No meat on friday - go ahead eat that cow
have faith and god shall provide - scan a list of saints an pray to the appropriate one to find your keys.

**loftezy** · April 11th, 2005, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by Theophylact

Richard Feynmann, who was no slouch, said that he had no hope whatsoever of winning an argument with Orthodox Jewish students, because they had a well-documented answer for everything and were at least as smart as he was. My guess is you could say the same for well-educated Catholics.

Hey! I just finished reading that book! (Surely, You Must be Joking)...its a small world I guess. :shrug:

**Theophylact** · April 11th, 2005, 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by sharder8

The main ways to learn, are by reading and asking questions . . . so if you have the answer or can add some suggested reading to help Epi and others find the answer . . . post them. If you don't have anything constructive to add to the thread . . . don't post.

Harder

Not posting the answers because (a) I don't have the references to hand and (b) don't take them seriously myself. But Mariolatry, as it's sometimes called, has a long history in Catholicism, though it's not there in early Christianity; I suggest Googling on the term.

Despite my moniker, I'm not an authority on Church history. My wife Marcia, who has serious interests along those lines, has read rather widely and has taken numerous courses on the subject. She recommends Peter Brown, especially The Rise of Western Christendom; for some of the specific questions, I would guess that The Cult of the Saints would be more to the point.

Good enough, sharder8?

**Epidemic** · April 11th, 2005, 12:38 PM

thank you, theo.

**Theophylact** · April 11th, 2005, 12:39 PM

De nada, Epidemic.

**jpheg** · April 11th, 2005, 01:00 PM

Catholics do not pray to saints such as Mary. Catholics pray with them. Before making any assumptions, please have a look at this section of the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

Part 1: Section 2: Chapter 3: Article 9: Paragraph 5: Intercession of Saints
956

"Being more closely united to Christ, those who dwell in heaven fix the whole Church moire firmly in holiness.... [T]hey do not cease to intercede with the Father for us, as they proffer the merits which they acquired on earth through the one mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus.... So by their fraternal concern is our weakness greatly helped."
Do not weep, for I shall be more useful to you after my death and I shall help you then more effectively than during my life.

I want to spend my heaven in doing good on earth.

Lets look at the words of the Hail Mary:

Hail Mary, full of grace.
Our Lord is with you.
Blessed are you among women,
and blessed is the fruit of your womb,
Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
pray for us sinners
now and at the hour of our death.
Amen.

This site should also help clear up some common misconceptions:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Inte...the_Saints.asp

**Epidemic** · April 11th, 2005, 01:50 PM

Thank you that was interesting. so the bible can be read that those who went before us can pray for us. I guess that the most holy who went before us can pray for us would be the best candidates. That is logical I suppose.

What of the selection of a particular saint with their respective power. AKA patron saint of lost keys. Who defines which saint to pray to?

**Theophylact** · April 11th, 2005, 01:52 PM

Originally Posted by Epidemic

What of the selection of a particular saint with their respective power. AKA patron saint of lost keys. Who defines which saint to pray to?

Patron Saints

**RedFury** · April 11th, 2005, 02:20 PM

Okay, I'm taking this whole thread light heartedly, but without spending my time reading through the various links posted and going strictly off the comments....am I to believe then, that the "saints" are called up to keep some kind of prayer vigil for you, so you can go about continuing to find your keys instead of having to spend more time trying to get God's attention?

You : "Hey Zita, keep knocking on the door until you get ahold of God, I gotta keep looking for those Keys"

Zita : "Hey, no problem. I'll take care of it"

Knock! Knock! Knock!

Knock! Knock! Knock!

Zita : "C'mon God, I know your in there! "

God : " Hey!, can't a guy get a moments peace? I'm trying to use the bathroom here!"

**sharder8** · April 11th, 2005, 02:34 PM

Originally Posted by Theophylact

Not posting the answers because (a) I don't have the references to hand and (b) don't take them seriously myself. But Mariolatry, as it's sometimes called, has a long history in Catholicism, though it's not there in early Christianity; I suggest Googling on the term.

Despite my moniker, I'm not an authority on Church history. My wife Marcia, who has serious interests along those lines, has read rather widely and has taken numerous courses on the subject. She recommends Peter Brown, especially The Rise of Western Christendom; for some of the specific questions, I would guess that The Cult of the Saints would be more to the point.

Good enough, sharder8?

Much better Theo!

Harder