how much force is too much. "to bomb or not to bomb that is the question"

[Chuckiechan]

Quote:

unjust foreign policies

Maybe by your standards. But the fact is that the middle east is going to change because it couldn't police it's own radical Islamists. And, yes the US is going to be the instument of change. Islam lost the right to change on it's own terms when it declared war on the USA on 9-11.

[EpyonMelee]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuckiechan

Maybe by your standards. But the fact is that the middle east is going to change because it couldn't police it's own radical Islamists. And, yes the US is going to be the instument of change. Islam lost the right to change on it's own terms when it declared war on the USA on 9-11.

im quoting this as evidence that you make the connection of 9-11 was islams doing.
'

How exactly did Islam declare war on USA?

[johnnycombat]

Well I wouldn’t speculate on just versus unjust but there is certainly a risk assumed by living in a belligerent nation during a time of war. But such is life.

I think the correct way of putting it would be that the global jihad declared war on the US and you might what to pick a date in the 1990’s. Also if you think the US can force a change on a large and ancient religion you’re fooling yourself.

[ClubMed]

You are very right Chuckiechan, the Middle East is definitely going to change, and the change has already started. Iraq is in the hands of Islamic political parties, while Muslim resistance initiatives have caused the coalition of the willing to become a coalition of the fleeing. In Lebanon the two largest blocks to have formed now are the Shi’ite and the Sunni parties, the same will happen in Syria. In Palestine Hamas is slated to win the elections. In Egypt the Islamic Brotherhood has become the main opponent to the illegitimate government and political parties. The same will happen in Jordan with it’s Palestinian majority. Similar developments are taking place in the other Arab countries.

Islam is once again on the rise in the Middle East as an avenue to fighting oppression and injustice. While it is not yet organized and sophisticated, it resonates much more with the needs and values of the people. Worldwide, and despite a disinformation campaign, Islam is on the rise too as the fastest growing religion in the world today due to people seeking an antidote to the valueless, materialistic and superficial ideas being lauded as ‘modern’ and ‘advanced’.

Once again history is being repeated, in the pre-Islamic period, Islamic values resonated at first with the poor and weak segments of the various societies only to cause an avalanche later on. Today the same is happening once again. The illegitimate governments, in their attempts at satisfying the national interests of foreign western states, have alienated their people and have not been able to address any of the cultural, economic, religious or collective needs and wishes. Islam on the other hand has been doing this for a very long time and now is receiving a push thanks to global injustice and hypocrisy.

This is not meant as a threat, but as an explanation to those willing to listen and interested in learning something about the ‘other side’.

There is no doubt that the changes will not take place from one day to the next, but the process is working steadily and gradually in favor of Islam.

Soon the illegitimate regimes in the Middle East will crumble, it is important now, for the sane tax-paying and voting people in certain western countries to use their collective wisdom and strength to prevent policies born of greed, ignorance and hatred from alienating the future entity taking root in the Middle East.

The war on terror, waging wars and invasions and global mass disinformation campaigns have failed because in their short sightedness they are unable to grasp this simple truth. One false interpretation after another, and one false foreign-policy decision after another have helped Muslims unite in finding common values and common grievances.

But there will always be opportunities for peace, because while the politicians and leaders around the world are all corrupt and hoping to strengthen their world order through intimidation and crimes, the peoples of the world want peace, stability, respect, security and bonds of brotherhood.

[Chuckiechan]

Quote:

im quoting this as evidence that you make the connection of 9-11 was islams doing.

Yes, that's correct.

Quote:

as an avenue to fighting oppression and injustice

[ClubMed]

[LINK="http://www.muslimheritage.com/"]So I guess it was blind automatons who invented the astrolabe, algebra, advanced in alchemia, mathematics, architecture, medicine, law and astronomy. Who reinterpreted Greek works, created Andalusia in Spain, and planted the seeds of the renaissance in Europe. [/LINK] I guess only blind automatons can grasp the value of fighting foreign interference and oppression.

[Chuckiechan]

.... And you haven't done anything since except be a pain in the ass to the rest of the civilized world.

It's only about the oil.

[ClubMed]

You bring us back to the points I mention that you like to ignore all the time:

Western influence since the end of the Ottoman Empire, the clash between America and the U.S.S.R which lead to countless military revolutions in the Middle East. Then the support of western governments given to Arab regimes. Economic injustice. Illegal wars to secure oil. Allegations that Arab advancements are WMD programs, lies, deceit, fabrication of evidence. Use of Arab regimes as torture centers.

All this so that your supposedly 'civilized' world can maintain it's pampered lifestyles.

Add to all this your ludicrous one-sided view of the whole issue. You are so short sighted and ill informed that you are unaware of any of this and instead think that it is the Middle East which has been a pain in the ass.

LOL

Why you choose to reveal how little you know is an enigma to me.

[Warthog]

Both of you crack me up with your constant bickering. By all means, don't stop - I typically find the discussions unique, despite my lack of input.

On a side note, I always find the term "illegal wars" interesting. Whether it's legal or illegal depends on what side you're on. It's like "freedom fighter" versus "terrorist".

CM - I'm not bashing you, only curious...being in Austria, you're as much of a "Westerner" and part of this "civilized world" as the rest of us. Why don't you live in the Middle East?

Warthog

[porsch1909]

I think he means illegal in the fact that France excercised its vito when it was put forth to the security council but the UK and US still went ahead and went to war....what is the point in the security council if it is just going to be ignored!