9/11: Debunking The Myths

[BBA]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Disley

Anyone who believes this plan could be planned and executed from a cave in Afghanistan, will believe anything the government wants them to believe.

If I recall, the plan wasnt to make the buildings fall, just kill some people. Osama himself said he was pleasantly surprised that both buildings fell, he did not expect as much.

That is a plausible reaction from Osama considering the towers were designed to withstand a B29 flying into it.

As for the planning, where do you think these 19 men got trained in terrorism? Sure wasn't the white house was it?

[BBA]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShawnD1

Something like this happened to a relative of mine (injury involving lots of things). After she told the story I said "maybe god's trying to kill you". She did not find that funny at all

I can understand what you are saying, but your example doesn't include coincidences. It starts by driving too fast, which is normal (the majority of all driving). The road has no guard rails, but most roads around here don't have guard rails, including ones passing over the Rocky Mountains. The road had a pothole in it, but so do many of the roads in Washington state. The only thing out of the ordinary would be the location of the pothole; it just happens to be where you need it. Overall the situation is plausible.

If you added maybe 20 or 30 coincidental rare events it would turn into something special where god is trying to kill you or angels are trying to save you

Yes, the pothole was right where I needed it, I realized that and I successfully capitalized on the fact I could use the pot hole to my advantage. If that pot hole had not been there, I would not be here typing this right now.

I have quite a few other near death driving experiences that were moderated by strange coincidence as well. I have quite a few coincidental directed knowledge experiences too. I dont need to post them all in this thread, thats not the point.

The real point here is that weird stuff happens all the time and most success stories involve some pretty amazing coincidences that have nothing to do with conspiracies. So to say that all those coincidences is not plausible is to be ignorant. Not only are coincidences plausible but they are reality.

[John Prophet]

BBA....I will say this nicely.....by your last 2 posts you obviously show that you havent read much on 911


you said-----"If I recall, the plan wasnt to make the buildings fall, they didn;t think that was possible and Osama himself said he was pleasantly surprised that both buildings fell."

you are referring to the "confession" tape which was "found" left in a building in Iraq.....this tape is obviously a fake....BinLaden has gained about 60 lbs and all of a sudden he is right handed and wearing a gold watch....of course that is no real problem I guess...but the fact that his nose is about 2" shorter than normal is a little problematic

no credible experts would attest to the legitimacy of the tape....in my understanding even the govt took it down from their website(s)....in short..the tape was a WEAK fake (see also: The Nick Berg tape).....yet as we see it is the ONLY piece of "evidence" needed to make some overlook thousands of other issues

as a matter of fact...when I firrrrrsssttttt started questioning 911, that tape was still on the news....I myself also bought into the "well, Binladen confessed" propaganda......then I did more research and saw how the govt story was totally full of lies and impossibilities


"That is a plausible reaction from Osama considering the towers were designed to withstand a B29 flying into it. "

actually it was designed to withstand a 707....which has a similar fuel capacity to a 757/767....one of the designers (Demartini?) said it should have been able to withstand multiple hits...I think you are thinking of the B29 that crashed into the Empire state building in 1945

"As for the planning, where do you think these 19 men got trained in terrorism? Sure wasn't the white house was it?"

hehe, you jest but you arent far off the mark....you DO know that some of the hijackers were trained on US bases dont you??? you DO know that 2 of them listed Pensacola Air Base as their place of residence???

(By The New York Times), WASHINGTON, Sept. 15 -- Three of the men identified as the hijackers in the attacks on Tuesday have the same names as alumni of American military schools, the authorities said today. The men were identified as Mohamed Atta, Abdulaziz al-Omari and Saeed al-Ghamdi.

The Defense Department said Mr. Atta had gone to the International Officers School at Maxwell Air Force Base in Alabama; Mr. al-Omari to the Aerospace Medical School at Brooks Air Force Base in Texas; and Mr. al-Ghamdi to the Defense Language Institute at the Presidio in Monterey, Calif.


it goes on and on.....these guys were patsies all the way...they had a lot longer history here in the US than we have been led to believe by the 911 Commision report.....they also has intelligence people all over them....they either had FBI people living WITH them, or the FBI paying their rent!!!!...or intelligence people living two doors down etc etc

they were shepharded in and out of the country even though they were on watchlists...Fed officials said more or less "dont touch them, they are part of a SPECIAL (anti)terrorist program".......they (supposedly) boarded the planes even though they were on watchlists....investigations into the various "hijackers" or Binladen himself were blocked repeatedly

the more you learn, the deeper it goes.....and there is no way to believe the shallow lies the govt passes out.....the whole "19 guys led by a guy in a cave" is a fairy tale story told for public consumption......believing that weak fiction is sort of like buying the used car at the first price the guy offers

besides which....at least 7 of the "19" are still alive and have given interviews to the BBC etc....so there actually is NO "19"......taking the at least 7 away from the list of 19 leaves 12.....12 guys to take over 4 planes....yet KNOWING that anywhere from 7-9 of these guys are still alive the FBI STILL has the same '19' names on their website and the 911 Commission report lists the same 19...the report goes as far to list one of the LIVING guys as one who stabbed people!!!! (page 5 of the report)....................so they cant even get straight the 19 names?????? what the...??? and on the fake bin laden tapes etc he praises the hijackers...naturally he uses some of the wrong names himself since whoever faked the BL tapes is reading off the same lame script

yet people still believe our govt???? I seriously am at a total and utter loss as to why.....I mean, I am 39 years old and my life experience doesnt give me a clue as to why anyone would believe a govt who lies such weak and pathetic lies on a consistent basis....why do people stand up and fight to defend such a lying entity?? do they think they are protecting the country??????? I hope not......the govt and the country are two extremely different things.

JP

[mad1]

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Prophet

BBA....I will say this nicely.....by your last 2 posts you obviously show that you havent read much on 911


you said-----"If I recall, the plan wasnt to make the buildings fall, they didn;t think that was possible and Osama himself said he was pleasantly surprised that both buildings fell."

you are referring to the "confession" tape which was "found" left in a building in Iraq.....this tape is obviously a fake....BinLaden has gained about 60 lbs and all of a sudden he is right handed and wearing a gold watch....of course that is no real problem I guess...but the fact that his nose is about 2" shorter than normal is a little problematic

no credible experts would attest to the legitimacy of the tape....in my understanding even the govt took it down from their website(s)....in short..the tape was a WEAK fake (see also: The Nick Berg tape).....yet as we see it is the ONLY piece of "evidence" needed to make some overlook thousands of other issues

as a matter of fact...when I firrrrrsssttttt started questioning 911, that tape was still on the news....I myself also bought into the "well, Binladen confessed" propaganda......then I did more research and saw how the govt story was totally full of lies and impossibilities


"That is a plausible reaction from Osama considering the towers were designed to withstand a B29 flying into it. "

actually it was designed to withstand a 707....which has a similar fuel capacity to a 757/767....one of the designers (Demartini?) said it should have been able to withstand multiple hits...I think you are thinking of the B29 that crashed into the Empire state building in 1945

"As for the planning, where do you think these 19 men got trained in terrorism? Sure wasn't the white house was it?"

hehe, you jest but you arent far off the mark....you DO know that some of the hijackers were trained on US bases dont you??? you DO know that 2 of them listed Pensacola Air Base as their place of residence???

(By The New York Times), WASHINGTON, Sept. 15 -- Three of the men identified as the hijackers in the attacks on Tuesday have the same names as alumni of American military schools, the authorities said today. The men were identified as Mohamed Atta, Abdulaziz al-Omari and Saeed al-Ghamdi.

The Defense Department said Mr. Atta had gone to the International Officers School at Maxwell Air Force Base in Alabama; Mr. al-Omari to the Aerospace Medical School at Brooks Air Force Base in Texas; and Mr. al-Ghamdi to the Defense Language Institute at the Presidio in Monterey, Calif.


it goes on and on.....these guys were patsies all the way...they had a lot longer history here in the US than we have been led to believe by the 911 Commision report.....they also has intelligence people all over them....they either had FBI people living WITH them, or the FBI paying their rent!!!!...or intelligence people living two doors down etc etc

they were shepharded in and out of the country even though they were on watchlists...Fed officials said more or less "dont touch them, they are part of a SPECIAL (anti)terrorist program".......they (supposedly) boarded the planes even though they were on watchlists....investigations into the various "hijackers" or Binladen himself were blocked repeatedly

the more you learn, the deeper it goes.....and there is no way to believe the shallow lies the govt passes out.....the whole "19 guys led by a guy in a cave" is a fairy tale story told for public consumption......believing that weak fiction is sort of like buying the used car at the first price the guy offers

besides which....at least 7 of the "19" are still alive and have given interviews to the BBC etc....so there actually is NO "19"......taking the at least 7 away from the list of 19 leaves 12.....12 guys to take over 4 planes....yet KNOWING that anywhere from 7-9 of these guys are still alive the FBI STILL has the same '19' names on their website and the 911 Commission report lists the same 19...the report goes as far to list one of the LIVING guys as one who stabbed people!!!! (page 5 of the report)....................so they cant even get straight the 19 names?????? what the...??? and on the fake bin laden tapes etc he praises the hijackers...naturally he uses some of the wrong names himself since whoever faked the BL tapes is reading off the same lame script

yet people still believe our govt???? I seriously am at a total and utter loss as to why.....I mean, I am 39 years old and my life experience doesnt give me a clue as to why anyone would believe a govt who lies such weak and pathetic lies on a consistent basis....why do people stand up and fight to defend such a lying entity?? do they think they are protecting the country??????? I hope not......the govt and the country are two extremely different things.

[JP

Bin Laden Claims Responsibility for 9/11
"WASHINGTON — Usama bin Laden (search ) made his first televised appearance in more than a year Friday in which he admitted for the first time ordering the Sept. 11 attacks and accused President Bush of "misleading" the American people.

Admitting for the first time that he ordered the Sept. 11 attacks, bin Laden said he did so because of injustices against the Lebanese and Palestinians by Israel and the United States.

In what appeared to be conciliatory language, bin Laden said he wanted to explain why he ordered the airline hijackings that hit the World Trade Center (search) and the Pentagon so Americans would know how to act to prevent another attack.

It was the first footage in more than a year of the fugitive Al Qaeda leader, thought to be hiding in the mountains along the Pakistan-Afghanistan border. The video, broadcast on Al-Jazeera television, showed bin Laden with a long, gray beard, wearing traditional white robes, a turban and a golden cloak, standing behind a table with papers and in front of a plain, brown curtain.

Multiple sources told FOX News that the tape is authentic and that it was made recently."

link

"The WTC used lightweight materials exclusively[5] especially in the facade. Had the facade contained even minimal masonry elements and/or traditional heavy steel outermost column rows, it would have been less likely the aircraft would have cleanly penetrated to the core of each tower— a significant portion of debris and jet fuel would have remained outside, a much different scenario.

The use of gypsum cladding instead of reinforced concrete to shield stairwells. Almost all skyscrapers, including those built since the WTC, shield stairwells in reinforced concrete. On September 11, it was the collapse of all stairways above the impact level that consigned all people above the impact zone in 1 WTC to death. 2 WTC had two of its three stairwells taken out above the impact area by the plane: some people above the impact zone survived by using the third stairwell. Computer models have shown that most of the stairwells in both towers would likely have remained usable until the general collapse had they been shielded in concrete.

Impacts of airliners

The towers were struck by hijacked Boeing 767 jet planes, American Airlines Flight 11 and United Airlines Flight 175. A typical Boeing 767 is 180 feet (55 m) long and has a wingspan of 156 feet (48 m), with a capacity of up to 24,000 US gallons (91 m³) of jet fuel. The planes hit the towers at very high speeds. Flight 11 was traveling roughly 490 mph (790 km/h) when it crashed into the 1 WTC, the north tower; flight 175 hit 2 WTC, the south tower, at about 590 mph (950 km/h). In addition to severing a significant amount of load-bearing columns, the resulting explosions in each tower ignited 10,000 gallons[2] (c. 40 m³) of jet fuel and immediately spread the fire to several different floors while consuming paper, furniture, carpeting, computers, books, walls, framing and other items in all the affected floors.

The buildings had in fact been designed to withstand the impact of the largest airliner of the day, the Boeing 707-320, lost in fog while looking to land. The modeled aircraft weighed 263,000 lb (119 metric tons) with a flight speed of 180 mph (290 km/h), as in approach and landing.[2]The 767s that hit the towers had a kinetic energy more than seven times greater than the modeled impact. Nonetheless, the impacts alone did not cause the towers to collapse.

The collapse mechanism

In the most comprensive of study to date, published in September of 2005, NIST developed computer models of the tops of the towers, which indicated that heat from the fires made floor assemblies sag in the middle of the spans. The collapses of the two towers were found to differ in some respects, but in both cases, the same sequence of events apply.[3]

After the initial aircraft impact had severed exterior columns and damaged core columns, the weight that these columns had supported was redistributed to other columns. NIST found that the hat trusses at the top of buildings played a significant role in this redistribution of the loads in the structure. The impacts also dislodged some of the fireproofing from the steel, increasing its exposure to the heat of the fires.

In the 56 and 102 minutes before the collapse of, respectively, 2 WTC and 1 WTC, the fires, and events associated with them, weakened the core, until it was unable to carry loads. The NIST report provides a useful image of the situation."

link

[John Prophet]

not sure what any of that proves.....we obviously will disagree on the fall mechanism.....each "side" has their experts

NIST is a govt functionary......so that is like asking the fox to report on what happened to the missing hens in the henhouse


anyway, its clear where I personally stand and I have presenting everything I possibly can in triplicate......I posted the Dr Steven Jones thermite info a few weeks ago and much of the standard info was rehased

like I said, one either sees it or they dont.....I get tired of posting stuff because no one answers to what I post..they just post up yet another govt link......they dont quite make the connection that I dont trust ANYTHING the govt says, lol........they dont trust my sources...I dont trust theirs.......but history is on my side as far as govts throughout history becoming despotic and tyrannical as ours is rapidly becoming

[Disley]

Who runs foreign policy. Much of the ideology behind the neocons comes from nazi sources.

A storm cellar for neocons and failed pols in the Rumsfeld Pentagon has been the Defense Policy Board, Chaired by Richard Perle, the virulent neocon warmonger whom British Labour Party Foreign Secretary Dennis Healey dubbed the "prince of darkness" back in the 1980s. On September 19, 2001, Perle used the Defense Policy Board as the springboard for the neocon war drive against Iraq that produced an unprovoked and aggressive war in March 2003. Other members of the Defense Policy Board included: Henry Kissinger, George Shultz, Helmut Sonnenfeldt, Fred Ikle, James Schlesinger, Dan Quayle, Harold Brown, James Woolsey, and Newt Gingrich. Perle was eventually forced to resign, in part because of corruption charges against him stemming from Trireme Corp, and his relation with Hollinger Corp. boss Lord Conrad Black. This board of unelected and unaccountable extremist ideologues, known as the Wolfowitz cabal, needs to be urgently and permanently dissolved.

In a 19-hour meeting on September 19-20, 2001 Perle, Newt Gingrich, James Woolsey, and Wolfowitz pushed hard for an immediate operation against Iraq. Wolfowitz's plan was to have the U.S. take over southern Iraq militarily as an opposition beachhead and use the Basra oil revenues to overthrow Saddam Hussein. Perle wanted Saddam.
Extract from, American Budda.
One is reminded of the comments of retired Army Colonel Larry Wilkerson, who was serving as Colin Powell's chief of staff in the State Department, apropos of certain leading neocons. "I call them utopians," Wilkerson told a reporter. "I don't care whether utopians are Vladimir Lenin on a sealed train to Moscow or Paul Wolfowitz. Utopians, I don't like. You're never going to bring utopia, and you 're going to hurt a lot of people in the process of trying to do it." Wilkerson added that he had "a lot of reservations about people who have never been in the face of battle, so to speak, who are making cavalier decisions about sending men and women out to die. A person who comes to mind in that regard is Richard Perle, who, thank God, tendered his resignation and no longer will be even a semiofficial person in this administration. Richard Perle's cavalier remarks about doing this or doing that with regard to military force always, always troubled me." (Washington Post, May 5, 2004)

[BBA]

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Prophet

BBA....I will say this nicely.....by your last 2 posts you obviously show that you havent read much on 911

as a matter of fact...when I firrrrrsssttttt started questioning 911, that tape was still on the news....I myself also bought into the "well, Binladen confessed" propaganda......then I did more research and saw how the govt story was totally full of lies and impossibilities

I really think you need to be up to date more.

Thanks to mad1 above for providing the link and info. JP, you should look into that.

Quote:

actually it was designed to withstand a 707

[Disley]

Taken from, 9/11 Synthetic Terrorism. Made in the USA.
And so we say to all persons of good will: you would never believe the utterances of Bush & Co. about any issue of importance without independently verifying the facts. Why do you persist in believing Bush on the most central question of our time, 9/11?

On September 14, 2001, the US Congress, contemptuously flaunting the lessons of the infamous and fraudulent Gulf of Tonkin resolution of August 1964, which had been paid for with the lives of 50,000 Americans and a million Vietnamese, gave Bush carte blanche to wage war, authorizing him to employ “all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations, or persons.” The only dissenting voice was that of Barbara Lee, Democrat of California, who defended the honor of the American people with her superb courage in the face of hysteria. It is Bush’s determination of those who “planned, authorized, committed, or aided” the 9/11 events which we must now examine.

[BBA]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Disley

Taken from, 9/11 Synthetic Terrorism. Made in the USA.
And so we say to all persons of good will: you would never believe the utterances of Bush & Co. about any issue of importance without independently verifying the facts. Why do you persist in believing Bush on the most central question of our time, 9/11?

Do I not independantly verify the facts? Yes, to the best of my ability. I research online and watch all media coverage I can, I can see emotional versus sincerity, that tells me a lot of the truth.

I see the media that is liberal biased and the media that is not, I see the stories of the brainwashed and the stories of the unbiased.

I think I reach the most reasonable conclusions, but, like any person, I can be mislead on occasion, it just doesn't happen very often.


If you do not reach the same conclusions I do, well, thats your perrogative.

[TOAD6147]

Quote:

...because the Clinton administration made rules that prevented the organizations from sharing information.

How moronic and close-minded can one person get?

Quote:

I see the media that is liberal biased and the media that is not