Under God - Tech Support Forums

RetroEvolute · October 4th, 2006, 07:06 PM

This is kind of old news, but I'd like to see what people are thinking now-a-day. We've been talking about this kind of stuff in Government class:

In California the use of the Pledge of Allegiance in public schools was questioned by a father of an elementary school girl. His basic argument was that the use of the Pledge of Allegiance in publc school was a violation of the establishment clause of the first amendment. To read more about the case go to: http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/06/18/ha...dge/index.html

What are your views on the issue. Keep in mind the Constitution and specifically the 1st Amendment (Establishment Clause, anyone?).

(I suppose that this only really effects the U.S. residents of this board. But, I'd love to hear anyone's responses. It might be nice to hear an "outsider's" view.)

The Real Bingo · October 4th, 2006, 07:35 PM

If you do not want to say it, then just be silent. No need to cause problems and waste people’s time by saying it infringes on this and on that. If you don’t believe in God, so what? Hell, I stood up and put my hand on my heart, but stopped reciting it in 10th grade or so…not because of theistic reason, but because I didn’t feel like moving my lips. I wish more people today felt the urge to keep their lips from flapping.

-FMA · October 4th, 2006, 08:02 PM

God should be removed from the pledge of Allegiance. That or it should be changed to one nation under gods, or without gods, which is pretty silly.

The U.S. was not founded on christianity, and it is not a christian nation.

It's not really violating the first amendment. The first amendment states that it will make no law respecting an establishment of religion. This isn't really an issue of the law.

It is a violation of seperation of church and state though.

-FMA

The Real Bingo · October 4th, 2006, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by -FMA

The U.S. was not founded on christianity, and it is not a christian nation.

Christianity has nothing to do with anything. And yes, our foundings and basic set of beliefs have a foundation in a "God".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exerpt from the Declaration of Independence

When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gettysburg Address

Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.

Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battle-field of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.

But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate -- we can not consecrate -- we can not hallow -- this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us -- that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion -- that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain -- that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A not so popular verse from The Star Spangled Banner

O thus be it ever when free-men shall stand
Between their lov'd home and the war's desolation;
Blest with vict'ry and peace, may the heav'n-rescued land
Praise the Pow'r that hath made and preserv'd us a nation!
Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
And this be our motto: “In God is our trust!”
And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Line from The Emancipation Proclamation

And upon this act, sincerely believed to be an act of justice, warranted by the Constitution, upon military necessity, I invoke the considerate judgment of mankind, and the gracious favor of Almighty God.

Need more proof?

-FMA · October 4th, 2006, 08:20 PM

No constitution? The majority of our founding fathers were not Christian, they were Deists.

-FMA

The Real Bingo · October 4th, 2006, 08:26 PM

No Constitution because the word "God" isn't mentioned, but I think documents from Jefferson, Lincoln, and our nation's anthem is pretty strong (even if they were written centuries ago) proof that God is a big part of our country (and clearly our beginnings).

Diests still belived in God, don't forget, -FMA. Maybe not a Christian god, or a Catholic god, or an Islamic god, but they believed in a greater being, who they called "God" for sake of a better word.

They weren't anti-religion or anti-God, which is what you're trying to lead us to believe.

-FMA · October 4th, 2006, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Real Bingo

No Constitution because the word "God" isn't mentioned.

Diests still belived in God, don't forget, -FMA. Maybe not a Christian god, or a Catholic god, or an Islamic god, but they believed in a greater being, who they called "God" for sake of a better word.

They weren't anti-religion or anti-God, which is what you're trying to lead us to believe.

Anti-religion, anti-god? Where the heck are you getting that from? I didn't even suggest that they were anti-god or anti-religion.

Deism is belief in the existence of a personal God, with disbelief in Christian, or with a purely rationalistic interpretation of Scripture... English Deism arose in the 17th century. ...[Its proponents] held very diverse opinions, some inclining to a rationalistic Christianity, some to materialistic infidelity; but they were agreed in that they sought to construct a natural religion by the light of reason alone, totally discrediting revelation.

List of Deists

Quote:

The Declaration of Independence
Many Christian's who think of America as founded upon Christianity usually present the Declaration of Independence as "proof" of a Christian America. The reason appears obvious: the Declaration mentions God. (You may notice that some Christians avoid the Constitution, with its absence of God.)
However, the Declaration of Independence does not represent any law of the United States. It came before the establishment of our lawful government (the Constitution). The Declaration aimed at announcing the separation of America from Great Britain and it listed the various grievances with them. The Declaration includes the words, "The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America." The grievances against Great Britain no longer hold today, and we have more than thirteen states.
Although the Declaration may have influential power, it may inspire the lofty thoughts of poets and believers, and judges may mention it in their summations, it holds no legal power today. It represents a historical document about rebellious intentions against Great Britain at a time before the formation of our government.

From: http://www.nobeliefs.com/Tripoli.htm

Check these out:
1. http://atheism.about.com/b/a/163814.htm
2. http://www.au.org/site/PageServer?pa...hristiannation
3. http://www.ffrf.org/nontracts/xian.php

And lastly, you might want to read up on: The Treaty with Tripoli

-FMA

The Real Bingo · October 4th, 2006, 08:46 PM

I know what the Declaration of Independence is, and I know it holds no legal clout. And I realize Jefferson wasn't referring to a specific God, but rather encompassing all beliefs by calling it "Nature's God".

So tell me, why should the Pledge of Allegiance not mention a generic "God"?

RetroEvolute · October 4th, 2006, 08:48 PM

But do you think that we should still be following the same set of ideas as we were centuries ago? Sure, there may have been a lot of famous documents and people who mentioned god in their text, however, is it right to single out a certain god (or generic god for that matter) in our country's documents? What if I was polytheistic? It might upset me.

Not to mention that these people, speaking of god in their speeches, perhaps were also just practicing their freedom of speech. But should anything pertaining to law be in any way related to god?

-FMA · October 4th, 2006, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Real Bingo

I know what the Declaration of Independence is, and I know it holds no legal clout. And I realize Jefferson wasn't referring to a specific God, but rather encompassing all beliefs by calling it "Nature's God".

So tell me, why should the Pledge of Allegiance not mention a generic "God"?

Because not everyone has a god. A generic god would apply universally to anyone who is a theist, the problem is: Not everyone is a theist.

Not everyone has a superhero, Bingo. Taking time from public, govenrment schools to speak as if everyone has some sort of superhero shouldn't be allowed.

-FMA