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  1. #1
    Steeler Fan jman01pa's Avatar
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    Simple Religion question

    Bear in mind that I am not very educated in any particular religion, but I do have have basic Christian beliefs.

    I had a conversation with a Baptist friend last night that was very adamant about being "saved". She proceeded to tell me that if I am not "saved" that I will go to hell when I die. Without doubt. Reguardless of how good of a person I am.

    I have a hard time believing this. I figure there are 6,225,953,927+ people in the world and only 33% of these are Christians. Assuming all of these Christians have been "Saved", that means the other 67% of the world are, without doubt going to hell. What is wrong with this picture? What about all the people that have never even heard of religion or believe in a totally different kind of God? What about babys and children who die without even knowing the concept of god?

    I just dont get it...

    Anyone care to share their views?


    j

  2. #2
    Member TonTo's Avatar
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    That's the crappy thing about really religious people.... they're right you're wrong and you're going to burn in hell hahaha.... that's why i typicaly don't like really religious people....


    my views are,.... whatever is out there, it's gonna see that i lived my life the way I think i should, i can respect myself, my friends and family can respect me, and the higher authority will see, hey, he's kool, he can come play ball with us.

    and if it's not that way, and if god is some all mighty bastard witha chip on his shoulder who's gonna damn anyone who isn't a bible banging loudmouth... well, i hope i burn well
    One of my users has been computing for 33 years...... older than i've been alive..... soooooo of course I know NOTHING about the tech that I helped create.

  3. #3
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    Started typing a reply, deleted it because I feel you can make enemies real easy by knocking someones religion.

    All I will say is you don't need to be a part of an organised religion (or believe in any kind of god) to be a good person.

  4. #4
    Fact Checker Gomer's Avatar
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    When you die... it probably gets really dark. Quiet too!

  5. #5
    Member Ming's Avatar
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    I always loved the song, "(Don't Worry) If There's A Hell Below We're All Gonna Go". I think it pretty much sums up my thoughts on the matter.
    Misfortune, n. The kind of fortune that never misses.

  6. #6
    Steeler Fan jman01pa's Avatar
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    I welcome any views but this is not intended to bash religions. I respect anyones wishes to practice however they want. My beef here is against someones views on me being abolished to hell because I am not saved. And their condemnation of me. Please dont rant here or make fun...


    J

  7. #7
    OAP Theophylact's Avatar
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    I have a cousin-by-marriage who is a Fundamentalist Methodist minister : he thinks gays can be cured by faith, his children are antievolutionists, the whole schmeer.

    He thinks Hell exists -- but it's empty.

    Go figure.

  8. #8
    MR Meek and Mild Epidemic's Avatar
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    I wish I had a solid faith. But like Gomer I think it is more likely to get dark than heaven or hell.

    I kinda think that religion is probably a manifestation of the fear of the candle blowing out theory.

    Yet I hold a glimmer of hope that someday I can see something that makes me believe. There are a lot of questions that an all powerful being would explain in the universe.

  9. #9
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    Sorry if you thought I was mocking, I'll now go into hibernation

    If your Baptist friend believes this, fine, let him.

    I just politely but firmly ask people not to preach their religion to me. It usually works without causing offence. (I always discuss religion with caution )

  10. #10
    Steeler Fan jman01pa's Avatar
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    Originally posted by greenstick
    Sorry if you thought I was mocking, I'll now go into hibernation

    If your Baptist friend believes this, fine, let him.

    I just politely but firmly ask people not to preach their religion to me. It usually works without causing offence. (I always discuss religion with caution )
    My last reply was more or less a blanket statement than directed at anyone specifically. And thank you.

    He he on the -tion...

    J
    Last edited by jman01pa; May 22nd, 2002 at 11:38 AM.

  11. #11
    Si vis pacem, para bellum daveleau's Avatar
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    If you do not have the opportunity to hear the Word, then I do not think you will be subjected to Hell (babies, 3rd world people not touched by missionaries).

    I do believe that if you are not saved by Jesus, you are condemned. All you have to do is read John 3:16 to know that. It is throughout the Bible.

    I know this will spark alot of resentment from other religions, but I am not the one who has said these things. They aren't up for debate. God, Himself, proclaimed this. If you object, talk to Him.

    I struggled with this for a long time. I too thought it unreasonable that 70% or more of the world's population should be condemned, but it is plainly stated in the Bible, so I cannot argue with it. To parahprase the Teachings, good works do not get you into Heaven. Only Faith in God and believing He sent His only Son to die on the Cross.

    While I know the Truth, I still struggle to find answers as to why.

    As for preaching to you, I won't bring it up unless you ask or bring up a related topic. I do not like people that every word out of their mouth is about relgion as much as the next guy. As far as religion being tolerant, tolerance is being twisted. 100% tolerance means the loss of all belief and conviction and sense of right and wrong. There is one correct religion. I am putting my eggs in the Christian basket. Whatever you do is your choice, but I would ask that you join our basket cuz I believe I am right and I do not want anyone to be left behind.
    Last edited by daveleau; May 22nd, 2002 at 12:51 PM.

  12. #12
    Ultimate Member Ritalin Kid's Avatar
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    What about babys and children who die without even knowing the concept of god?
    I believe there is up to an again a persons life when they are considered unaccountable.. I believe it is different for each person as it implies more toward when you finally realize the difference between what is sin and what is not sin..

    Though as the Bible shows all God asks is that you simply keep faith and believe Christ died for your sins.. he didn't say go start congregations, he didn't say start Holy wars, he never said bash the gays or the Jews, nor did he ever tell anyone to cram their beliefs down anyone elses throat.

    I consider the Old Testiment as a great history lesson about the people who followed God. The New Testiment is more or less a testimony about how Christ lived a life clean from sin which was the only way his death could cover the sins of the world alot like how in the Old Testiment everytime one sins they either payed with the innocent life of their newborn livestock or with their own life.. it helps make sense when the "Lamb of God" term is used.

    You don't have to be a Bible thumper to believe in God or Jesus though being a part of the human race it's very hard to admit that there are just some things that we just can't explain.. kinda like space.. we have alot of theories but we can't explain all of it.

    Do I believe in Hell?? Yep, it's in the Bible... it's there... are there people there... not until the Rapture... and do I know who's going there? Nope.. I'm in no position to judge another person which what most christians don't seem to understand is a sin in itself.
    Last edited by Ritalin Kid; May 22nd, 2002 at 01:08 PM.

  13. #13
    Ultimate Member Mortis's Avatar
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    Speaking seriously, that other 67% may have the same views about baptists.

    No matter your affiliation- churches, denominations, religious bodies, faith groups, tribes, cultures, movements... so on and so forth, everyone thinks their way and belief system is correct and the only sure path to heaven/afterlife sanctuary (however, there are also many that also dont hold such strict views).

    It comes down to the last statement, belief systems. I personally dont believe in anything that casts condemnation on any other group. I cant do this. Which is in large part why I dont participate in any organized religion, Also- currently, I am atheist. This may change later in my life. I respect the beliefs of others, but dont tolerate them when they subject me, a good and idealistic person, to judgement. I find the nearest door and exit.

    I find that many denominations/religions teach intolerance (might be a strong word, but saying a Jew is going to hell because he doesnt believe the baptist view is just as strong and intolerant. I use this example cause it comes to mind) toward other such groups concerning religious views and teachings. If you record all of them, I would venture to guess that no-one is safe from hell.

    Well, so be it then. SomeDay I will find out the truth- I will either have an after life and say hmm, such and such was true- cool. Or, I will say and know nothing.

    Mortis

    EDIT: Additional comments. How many have gone with friends to see a movie, or all read a book... to have everyone get something different out of it? That is the Way I see Holy Books, no matter their flavor. Human perceptions and interpretations are so vastly dependent on so many different physical and enviromental things that I will not give complete confidence and devotion to something that was and is reliant upon such things. Just my additional thoughts. We, as humans are fallible and so is everything we perceive, think and believe. True knowledge, I believe, is unknowable because of our faults, our humanity.
    Last edited by Mortis; May 22nd, 2002 at 01:07 PM.

  14. #14
    shahani
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    I agree with Mortis. As part of the "other" 67%, I'd say the same thing to Christians.

    The key, IMO, is to have a belief. In any religion and any GOD but have a belief in a superior "being" and be answerable to that being.

    You ask what is wrong in what your friend says. Well, what is wrong is that if you are "saved" you will go to heaven. That's OK. But, what is not added is that you can be "saved" in any other religion as well. Hope I'm clear.

    So, the important thing to remember here is that a human being should have belief in GOD and look upon GOD to guide him through life.

    GOD doesn't have to be Christian/Jewish/Hindu/Moslem.... obviously. GOD represents all religions.

    To think otherwise is not only bigoted but also narrow mindedness.

  15. #15
    Ultimate Member Ritalin Kid's Avatar
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    EDIT: Additional comments. How many have gone with friends to see a movie, or all read a book... to have everyone get something different out of it? That is the Way I see Holy Books, no matter their flavor. Human perceptions and interpretations are so vastly dependent on so many different physical and enviromental things that I will not give complete confidence and devotion to something that was and is reliant upon such things. Just my additional thoughts. We, as humans are fallible and so is everything we perceive, think and believe. True knowledge, I believe, is unknowable because of our faults, our humanity.
    ^Well said.. I don't think any one person can have complete knowledge about any subject... we're human... we are efficient but not perfect.. you really begin enjoy life when you realize this because you start to enjoy life instead of trying to disect it.

  16. #16
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    If there is an Overriding Power in the universe, I believe that that power is Love and Inclusion, and I don't think there is a Hell. If there is an Omniscient God, then that God would have an omniscient understanding and would not just love and include those people who had decided on any particular religion, or any religion at all, for that matter.

    Sure, I believe that some behavior is good, and some behavior is evil. I also think anything with a God perspective would understand the reason for all behavior and would love and forgive all. I don't think this Omniscient Presence would only love and forgive those of a particular faith.

    I think the concept of an eternal hell is itself verging on evil, although I certainly don't think people who believe in it are evil--just frightened.

    I don't think we should fear death.

    If consciousness survives death, and if we have been evil in our lives, then perhaps there may be a time when we have to face what we have been and done, and that might be hell for awhile, but I believe that the light awaits us all and that we are all embraced by it. And I don't think this just applies to people--I believe that all life is filled with spirit.

    God would have an infinite understanding. I don't think infinite understanding would include eternal hell.

  17. #17
    Ultimate Member Agent_Embryo's Avatar
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    See "Dogma" by Kevin Smith.
    This is The SignatureŠ

  18. #18
    Ultimate Member Mortis's Avatar
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    Insightful Angela... good pts. IMO, you summed up what spirituality and any organized religion should have as its core premise, its foundation.

    Mortis

    (DogMa was Great!)

  19. #19
    Si vis pacem, para bellum daveleau's Avatar
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    I ask you all to read the Bible. I don't care what religion you are, just read it and see what you think afterwards. I think it would change your life for the better and any misconcptions you have will be answered.


    edit:
    You do KNOW that all 3 of the major religions accept the Bible's Old Testament as truth. That includes Islam, Judaism and Christianity. All 3 believe Christ was here, but differ on their beliefs of who He was.
    Last edited by daveleau; May 22nd, 2002 at 01:48 PM.

  20. #20
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    Originally posted by daveleau
    I ask you all to read the Bible. I don't care what religion you are, just read it and see what you think afterwards. I think it would change your life for the better and any misconcptions you have will be answered.
    I was raised Episcopalian, went to church every Sunday through high school, and I have read the Bible--more than once--some of it many times. In fact it did change my life for the better--it got me to start thinking about spiritual matters in a very serious way.

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