Broadcom mini PCI wireless hang

[g_epley]

Hello,
I've got a strange problem occuring that appears to be caused by a wireless network hang. I've never had any kind

of hanging problem like this before so
am unsure as to how to fix it.

Here is the hardware/software involved:
HP Pavilion ZV5210US notebook,
AMD Athlon 64 Processor 3000+,
512Mb RANM, Windows XP Home SP2 (with all updates applied),
All hardware drivers/software as up to date as I can get them,
NVIDIA GeForce4 Go 64m (integrated video),
SoundMax Digital Audio (integrated audio),
Broadcom 802.11B/G WLAN (mini PCI wireless),
Realtek RTL8139/810x Family Fast Ethernet NIC (integrated 10/100/ wired),

The system has been clean installed with a Microsoft branded Windows XP Home with SP2 CD, so I know there is no

"funny" software causing the problem. Everything is standard stuff equivalent to an older Dell Inspiron 4000

system. I've cross checked everything I can find between these two systems one to one as much as is possible

considering differing hardware components between the two systems.
The router is a Linksys WRT54G set up standard except for a few changes, which I will be glad to try to pass along

assuming anyone needs that info. Understand that I've been using wireless for a few years now, so the chance that

this is a config problem on the Linksys is not likely.

Currently I am using WEP and have the router configured for
PPOE over DSL with a Mixed B/G environment.

I have the following other wireless cards going over this network and have never had any sort of hanging problems

like this:
Dell TrueMobile 1150 Series Mini PCI Card,
Wireless-G Notebook Adapter with SpeedBooster (PCMCIA from Linksys),
Linksys Instant Wireless PCI Card (WRT11),

On the HP system, I have disabled the Broadcom (File menu, Disable) in Network Connections, and run exclusively off

the integrated Realtek 10/100 for days
with no issues. If I disable the Realtek in Network Connections, and enable the Broadcom wireless, at some random

point - usually sometime within about 2 hours or less, the HP just freezes. The keyboard and mouse appear to

function to some extent, but not at all reliably, and eventually, after several
minutes, neither seems to work at all. I've let the system sit for anywhere from 5 to 10 minutes with no recovery

and am always forced to force power
down the system in order to get the system back up to continue.

Unfortunately the event logs are little help. Prior to clean installing the system, the occasional entry in the

Event logs around the time of the crash was cryptic, at best. Since the clean install, I've not had a single freeze

up that left any entry in the Event log that would help pinpoint the problem.

Thank God I have the integrated 10/100 to fall back on, but I really would like to get the wireless going. Someone

else told me that wireless
networks using WPA often show hangs like this, but all I've ever used is WEP, even though I could use WPA on some of

the cards.
Anybody got any troubleshooting suggestions here? Or ideas as to how to solve this problem? I do not have access to

Windows XP Professional and don't have
any commercial tools to diagnose this problem. Fortunately I'm not out and about around a bunch of wireless

networks at this time, but not being able
to use the wireless B/G in this laptop is irritating, to say the least. I do hope the solution isn't "get rid of

the Broadcom card" because I'd really
prefer not having to open the system up if there was any other solution.

BTW, under normal operating conditions, even if the HP laptop is on for a whole day with lots of work, it only gets

slightly warm. I've noticed that when the hang occurs and the system freezes, if left for the 5-10 minutes, it

seems to begin getting much hotter and I can feel hot air being exhausted by the fan. Also BTW, if the solution is

"get rid of the Broadcom card", then please recommend a better mini PCI wireless for this HP laptop (model # earlier

in post).

I feel the issue here is something with this Broadcom card. I've updated all the drivers as best I can from HP; I

visited Broadcom's web site and find them telling me that they don't support any networking products other than

Ethernet NIVs, to go to the product manufacturer for support for my product. Excuse me? The Device Manager tells

me the card is from "Broadcom"... why would I go to HP for that support? That doesn't make any sense at all to me.

I've heard of manufacturers, like Dell or HP, using a product from a vendor in their systems, but rarely does Dell

or HP or whomever actually "manufacture" the component in question; vendors like 3Com or ATI or whomever do the

manufacturing. I will buy and try another vendors' mini PVI wireless card in this laptop before I will go without

it for days while HP gives it a once over. It is entirely possible there is something wrong with the mini PCI

interface on the motherboard, but that will require replacing the entire motherboard, and who knows what problems I

don't presently have will creep in with that kind of replacement.
-Greg

[Kuasimodem]

You mention that it's a clean install of XP Home SP2...

1. Did you install the drivers for each of your devices, especially the wireless card? The default Windows drivers may be causing problems.
2. Have you run Windows Update since the install? There are updates after SP2. Just don't install any driver updates from there, I've had problems with them.
3. Do you have the original restore disks that came with the laptop? The drivers may be on the disks in a seperate file like my eMachines laptop.
4. Click Start>Run and type in "services.msc" (without the quotes). Look for "Wireless Zero Configuration Utility" near the bottom of the list and disable it. It may be conflicting with the software for the Broadcom card, causing the processor to go into a loop (which is also the probable source of the heat issue).

Just a few ideas to get started with...

[g_epley]

[quote=Kuasimodem]You mention that it's a clean install of XP Home SP2...[list=1][*]Did you install the drivers for each of your devices, especially the wireless card? The default Windows drivers may be causing problems.

Oops!, what happened is that I've posted this problem on several forums on the net and so far no one has replied back; I know I had all the info you asked for at one time, but it seems to have disappeared over time.

Yes, I am using the latest drivers available for all devices.
[*]Have you run Windows Update since the install? There are updates after SP2. Just don't install any driver updates from there, I've had problems with them.

(missing info, again) Yes, always do. I've also had some Windows Update problems similar to yours, which is why I always use the Custom option so I can control what goes in and what doesn't.
[*]Do you have the original restore disks that came with the laptop? The drivers may be on the disks in a seperate file like my eMachines laptop.

Most, if not all, of the drivers/software on the original CD have been updated by HP, and the updated stuff is what's installed. BTW, the computer was experiencing this same problem straight from HP, it just has taken me some time to get it isolated this far. The system has run fine on the integrated 10/100 for any length of time I've tried it. It's only when it's on wireless that it eventually freezes up.
[*]Click Start>Run and type in "services.msc" (without the quotes). Look for "Wireless Zero Configuration Utility" near the bottom of the list and disable it. It may be conflicting with the software for the Broadcom card, causing the processor to go into a loop (which is also the probable source of the heat issue).

I will give this last item a try and post back as soon as I have results to report. BTW, do you know of any reason this problem could be caused by using Enable/Disable on the Local Area or Wireless Network connection entries in the Network Connections of XP? I prefer to Disable whatever connection I don't need to use at the time.
-Greg

[g_epley]

Hello Kuasimodem,
Well that test didn't take long. Here's what I did:
1. Went into Services and "Stopped" the wireless Zero service you suggested; waited for it to go to a "Start" status.
2. Did a "Disable" on the Local Area Connection in Network Connections.
3. Did an "Enable" on Wireless Network Connection in Network Connections.
4. Verified the status of each of the above to see that they were correct after enable/disable.
5. Restarted the computer.
6. After the computer was back up, went back into Services and verified the Wireless Zero service was still "Stopped" (the "Start" link was the only choice).
7. Tested by going to Yahoo and doing some searches. The system had been up and running for approximately 10 minutes, and when I had just clicked on a search result link when the computer froze; I can't be sure how much, if any, of the page I requested was loading since the system froze just after the click. BTW, I do know this isn't a mouse issue because I've had it do this same thing using the keyboard (both the laptop and an external, even when tried independently).
7. Let the system set for 5 minutes with no change in status.
8. Finally forced the system down, brought it back up, enabled the Local Area Connection and disabled the Wireless Network Connection in Network Connections.
9. Checked all three of the Event logs to see if anything had been recorded around the time of the freeze. Nothing.

A little more information:
1. The freeze occurred on the system as it arrived from HP.
2. The freeze occurred when using the latest driver from HP (without the User Interface Utility from Broadcom/HP). with config of the wireless card done through the Wireless Network Connection of Network Connections.
3. The freeze occurred when using the matching driver and Broadcom/HP User Interface Utility software from the HP web site; the dates and version numbers of both the driver and User Interface Utility match and were the latest as of 12/2004. In order for me to try to isolate what seemed to be causing the problem, I had first tried not installing or using the User Interface Utility, and instead chose to download and install the latest driver and continue using the Wireless Network Connection in Network Connections. When using the matching driver/config utility, I let the user interface utility manage the connection, rather than the Wireless Network Connection in Network Connections.

Like I've pointed out, the freeze only occurs at some random point when using wireless. I don't know if something is wrong with hardware (i.e., the Broadcom card, the mini PVI interface on the motherboard, etc.), although nothing I can run as far as diagnostics reveals any conflicts or problems with any hardware components.

As I've also pointed out, it's odd to me that I'm suddenly having this wireless problem when nothing else on my network has ever exhibited this kind of "hang". Granted, the bulk of wireless cards I listed in the original post are Linksys cards, but this is the second Linksys router I've used on this network and I never had any problems with the Dell TrueMobile PCMCIA or the mini PVI Dell TrueMobile on a Dell Inspiron 4000 laptop. BTW, there is only the WRT54G router in the network, and all the wired and wireless cards were working with either Linksys router prior to this new HP coming into the mix. No other systems on the network are being affected by this. I'm thoroughly frustrated with a problem which leaves no traces as to what's causing it; I'm accustomed to having some "bread crumbs" to follow, and this freeze/hang is leaving nothing for me to follow.
-Greg

[Kuasimodem]

I'm beginning to think that it's a heat failure of the Broadcom card itself since you are running the same drivers as me and have your network settings the same as me (other network connections disabled).

One way to check this is to borrow the TrueMobile PCMCIA card from the other laptop and try that, making sure that the Broadcom card is disabled. If the connection works good without locking the computer up then the card is most likely the source of the problem.

Is the laptop still under warranty? If so, I would contact HP about getting a replacement Broadcom card. Changing the cards is pretty simple if they will send you a replacement.

[g_epley]

Hi Kuasimodem,
Here's some updated information...

I now feel I was mistaken in saying that the Broadcom wireless in this HP laptop was mini PVI. Everything I can find out about it talks as if the thing is integrated on the motherboard, which of course would mean that if something is wrong with the card then HP would need to replace the whole motherboard. Personally I think that's a stupid design; I mean, it's bad enough most devices are integrated on laptop motherboards these days without adding the wireless card into that mix.

I agree somewhat that it could be a heat related issue, but one of the other bits of info that I think got lost from the original post is that the freeze up times are all over the place on this issue, making the likelyhood that it's heat related not very good. My experience with heat related device problems has always been that they are usually very predictable, meaning that if a freeze up occurs at say, 20 minutes after the system is being used, then additional failures can be found to occur at 18 minutes, 22 minutes, 19 minutes, etc. - not suddenly 1 hour later, or just 10 minutes after a whole day's use, or 5 minutes after a fresh, cold start in the morning. The latter kind of behavior is the type I'm experiencing; like I said, no "bread crumbs" for me to follow; I'm not usually this bad at troubleshooting, but I know when to admit defeat.

For some odd reason, after discovering that the Broadcom wireless was probably integrated on the motherboard, I enabled the RealTek in Network Connections, so both the Broadcom and RealTek are enabled. I unplugged the RJ45 cable from the laptop, so the laptop sees a network cable unplugged; I am running on the wireless connection only, no doubts about that.

Yesterday, I ran for about an hour session in the morning, then a little over 3 hours in the afternoon with no freezes; today I ran for a little less than an hour in the morning, and for just a little over 2-1/2 hours this afternoon, again with no freezes whatsoever.

I will not trust that I've apparently solved this problem until I have several more sessions lasting several hours each. Previously, a freeze has occurred sometime within 3 long sessions, but due to other things I have going on right now I've been unable to get a good run on 3 consecutive long sessions in a row.

I'm probably barking up the wrong tree here, but I'm guessing that because these two network devices are integrated must have something to do with needing to keep them both enabled, and simply disconnect the RJ-45 cable to go exclusively wireless, or press a special on/off key located on this HP to turn the wireless on/off to go exclusively wired. This laptop is still quite new to me, and I'm still finding things on it that I didn't realize were there, such as the wireless key on the keyboard.

Anyway, I'm cautiously optimistic I have found a workable solution to let this wireless work in peace and that's all that matters to me. If it appears I'm wrong, I guess I'll have no choice but to send the system to HP for diagnostics and/or replacement of the offending device/motherboard.

Thanks for all your help on this, I really appreciate it!
-Greg

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuasimodem

I'm beginning to think that it's a heat failure of the Broadcom card itself since you are running the same drivers as me and have your network settings the same as me (other network connections disabled).

One way to check this is to borrow the TrueMobile PCMCIA card from the other laptop and try that, making sure that the Broadcom card is disabled. If the connection works good without locking the computer up then the card is most likely the source of the problem.

Is the laptop still under warranty? If so, I would contact HP about getting a replacement Broadcom card. Changing the cards is pretty simple if they will send you a replacement.