Can we talk dual and Quad CPU configurations?

[cyphen]

So i'm putting together a quote for a new rendering system for this company... a system i'll be operating. It'll be running Win7 Pro 64. Right now the system is a two dual core opteron 270s @2 GHz system with 6 GB of ram. It's fairly old.

Here's what i'm wondering:

What would be better, knowing that certain aspects of the programs i'll be using are not multithreaed, but most are:

A dual CPU 6-core Xeon system (12 cores total) or
A quad CPU 12 core opteron system (48 cores total)

The opteron cores are slower, but there are so many more of them, it may make up for that fact. Also, the board i found for the quad cpu opteron system takes 4-way interleaved DDR3 Ram as opposed to dual or triple interleaved ram.

Alternately, is there a quad CPU Xeon option available?

Also, if i go with any quad cpu option, will I be able to add procs as i go without reinstalling the OS? If i only put 2 procs in now, can i add the other 2 later?

Thanks a bunch!

(My gut tells me the Xeons will be faster given the greater core speed and larger caches, and the uncertaintly of a program to be able to take advantage of 48 cores...)

[Aaron_8015]

If you don't use programs that take advantage of lots of threads, more ores sound like a waste of time.... You can get more socket server boards (though the price really does skyrocket).

TBH and dual socket Xeon board with a couple 6 core CPUs (total 24 threads) will easily handle most applications you throw at it (without breaking the bank). Yes you should be able to add in CPUs without OS reinstall (though it may want to be reactivated).

[JPMiller]

What specific programs are we talking about, and have you priced out the configurations your talking about?
Maybe I'm wrong, but I would be curious to see how a Quad core i7 would fare against those multi CPU configurations...
I know servers may benefit from setups like these, but with rendering?...
I also have to wonder if the money couldn't be better spent on high speed SSD's and lots of memory

[ShyguyXPC]

Also depending on the program, it may not be able to use all those cores or Threads.

Just an example, Carrara 8 that I play with from time to time for 3D Rendering, can only utilize up to 16 cores or threads per installation. Once 16 Threads is obtained on the host system, you would need to set up a network render node for an additional up to 16 Threads, and a new system for each on there after.

With Intel "Core" based CPU's (i3, i5, i7, related Xeon's), having Hyper Threading enabled can throw a wrench into the works as well, as that will be considered extra processing threads/cores in most programs. So say your Program is limited to 16 threads, and you stuff Two 6-core Xeon's in there with HT enabled, that's 24 Threads, and only 16 used. Disable HT, and your only running 12 Threads.

So depending on what the max your software supports can also be a limiting/deciding factor.

But as a rule, currently Intel CPU's vs AMD's, regardless of the series, Xeon to Opteron, Athlon/Phenom II to Intel Core i3/5/7, clock for clock the Intels will have greater CPU processing power than the AMD counterparts.

As to 4 Way Intel Xeon Solutions, yes, but most sites like Newegg Aren't going to carry such high end/priced parts.

Supermicro | Products | Motherboards | Xeon Boards | X8QBE-LF

(Supports up to 4x 10-Core intel Xeon's)

is just one out there.

More boards here: Supermicro Products - MP Xeon Solutions


Or even this 8 CPU monstrosity (Via add in CPU Boards), up to 8x 10 Cores.

Super Micro Computer, Inc. - Products | Motherboards | Xeon Boards | X8OBN-F

best companies to look at for these types are Supermicro and Tyan.

[cyphen]

Thanks for all the info. I ended up getting boxed in by corporate bureacracy and a risk-averse IT department. Which is fine. It's their money. But i had to go with an "approved' configuration. Which meant dual Xeon 5650s (wouldn't even let me go with 5690s...). It's weird. It's an HP Z800 system that's the "blessed" system and it's $6500. I could have built one for $1000 less that was 35% faster and had 4x as much RAM. I could have saved them $12000 on storage, and another $1200 on the monitor that comes with the system.

The system that the reseller "recommended" (all but demanded we buy) is fully supported through them AND through the manufacturer. By stepping outside of the "approved" configuration, all that happens is we don't get a third level of support through the software developer. The software would still be covered and supported, but they wouldn't talk to us about hardware. They wouldn't even let me deck out the HP system, because it wasn't an approved configuration to upgrade the processors.

My argument: IF anything goes wrong with any of the hardware, it's covered by both the reseller and the manufacturer. If anything goes wrong that's a software issue, we still have full software support. If a drive fails on my cheap array, the data is backed up. Get another drive, rebuild it and restore the data. OR Spend a tiny bit more and go raid5. OR - hell - i'll build 2 cheap arrays and sync them! They absolutely won't fail at the same time! (barring meteor strikes or zombie mobs).

If a drive fails on the other system, it needs to be replaced and the array needs to be rebuilt. It stays operational while that happens, fortunately, but so would my 2-array solution. In fact, with my 2-array solution, the redundant array can be used as near-line storage to offset traffic on the SAN.

So in short, what do you get by paying an extra $15,000 or so? The ability to make a phone call for something that is already redundantly supported. Whaddaya think?

"Hmmm... we'll go with the approved configuration. But thanks for your input!"

chance of system failure requiring tertiary support: 0.001%
chance that tertiary support will be able to prevent down time in case of that situation: Let's be generous and say it's 20%.
True chance of benefit from tertiary support: 0.0002%
Cost of tertiary support: ~$15,000 AND a slower system
Risk-aversion: 99.9998%
Cost/Benefit Analysis: Lousy!

What have we bought? for $15,000 we have bought the ability to make a phone call we could have made to two other companies and hope they can help where the others couldn't.

On top of that, when i've dealt with their "support" - their systems knowledge has been less than stellar.
<sigh>

Well, thanks for the input. At least i did agree that dual Xeon 6-core procs seemed to be the way to go.

[ShyguyXPC]

and this is one of many things so wrong with IT and Corporate America these days.

No Offense, but if they're just going to do the equivalent of going down to the nearest Best Buy or Walmart and pick up a Server off the shelf, why do they even consult with IT personnel and ask them to take care of the upgrades, knowing full well, its pointless.

[cyphen]

At least they're upgrading... i guess that's a plus. Part of the problem was the sales guy, who worked very hard to convince them it was absolutely necessary to have that tertiary support. He spoke in that very hesitant tone.... weeeeellllllll... i just want you guys to know, you won't have that extra support, and if i sell you a system and it doesn't work... yada yada yada...

I even flat out stated - there's nothing magical about the storage they tested.. only that they tested it and a few other options and they KNOW they work. There's nothing magical about the 5650 processors vs the 5690s... The 5690s will work just fine... but they weren't in the test system. Ugh! I could have built them two fully functional systems that ran faster for slightly more money... BTW - the software is AVID DS... i think someone asked about that. It's a post-production effects and finishing system.

Oh well. I just know that if i get into a position where i'm making the decisions - i'll never be THAT risk-averse!

I think, to answer your last question in general, they simply ask to say they consulted IT, even though they went ahead and did what they were going to do anyway. That wasn't quite the case here. Although i've worked in IT (not at this company), i was consulting them on how to save money and build a better system - and at least i got their ear. It's just that the sales tactics ended up convincing them... But like i said - it's their money, and at least they're upgrading. But i do appreciate the info and advice.

[ShyguyXPC]

Avid | Avid DS Software

I know OF it, and have heard of it, but never used it, but well acquainted with the Avid name (Avid, M-Audio, Pinnacle, etc) of products.

Before catching a deal on Corel VideoStudio X4 a week or two ago (and then earlier this week newegg had it on sale for $10 less than I got from Corel, which was already 50% off regular price ), I was looking at one of Avid's Video products, along with Pinnacle Studio 15.